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Thread: Crossroads or just a speed bump?

  1. #1
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    Default Crossroads or just a speed bump?

    I have a situation that is causing me a good deal of distress and I'd like to get the opinion of the esteemed members of this forum to consider when making a decision. Here it goes...SBAR format

    Situation:
    I am not getting training for my belt level.

    Background:
    I have been studying under my instructor for about 4 years now. I always pay my tuition promply. I am 36 years old and have trained in many different systems of martial arts. I've not trained in any long enough to have earned a black belt. Frankly, rank is not so important to me. What is important is that I simply get to train. It has its own intrensic rewards. My current rank is 4th kyu. I am currently senior student and "assistant instructor". Our class of about 20 students is one hour each day for two days each week (two hours/week) and is completely integrated - kids and adults of all ranks train together.

    Assessment:
    My instructor knows his stuff. He's a good teacher and really enjoys what he does. However, he is not such a good business manager and doesn't see the need (or is not acknowleding the need) for split classes. He has yet to train up a black belt in the 12 years (or so) that he's been teaching, and I feel that this may be the reason. I've expressed my concerns to my instructor about not training in my own curriculum for several months and the feeling that I'm stagnent. Nothing has changed. We still routinely cover beginner level material again and again, or diverge into material that is not considered requirement for my level curriculum.

    Suggestion:
    I leave this to you, my knowledgable forum mates. My thoughts are that I have a couple of options: One - pose an ultimatum. "Either start training in my curriculum or I'm leaving". Two - Take up supplimental study in another art and just ride this one out. Three - just tolerate it and continue to make gentle suggestions about splitting up the ranks and the adult/childrens programs.

    At this point, I feel that this is a matter of taking for granted the higher rank belts and neglecting them in favor of the numbers of lower kyu belts. I am open and appreciative of any suggestions and opinions. That includes, "You are just being too impatient". You won't hurt my feelings.

    Thanks in advance and God bless.

    ~Billy Richardson
    Arredondo Jujitsu
    Kerrville, Texas

  2. #2
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    toejoe2k,
    I'm not saying this necessarily applies to you but it sure did to me. I was held back at san kyu for quite a while and I totally knew it and I also had a good idea why. It was sort of a test, and I don't mean in the Zen sort of way but my sensei wanted to see how patient I was and if I was mature enough to move on. I was 32 at the time but the maturity I'm referring to had more to do with my study of MA than the general definition. He also used to test me by giving me "challenging" students to teach when he knew I'd rather be working on my rank level arts.
    My passion to study and progress can sometimes get in the way of focusing on what's needed to progress. Sort of a catch 22. But I'm sure you know the cliches about how if you want your black belt you can go and buy one. Unfortunately I had to stop training for other reasons but I'm positive I'd have attained my Shodan by now as well as being incredibly versed in the foundation arts.
    Again my experience may not apply to your situation but maybe it'll help give you some insight. From what you've told us I don't think leaving the club is the best idea unless you're really not happy there.
    Hope that helps,
    -e

  3. #3
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    Hi, Billy.

    Your post gives me the impression that you aren't the only student whose been around for a while and who is ready to work on advanced stuff. If I were you, I would consider talking to some of them and seeing what they thought about doing some extra training. Then I would go to the instructor and say, "Sensei, we've been doing a lot of work on the basics lately, but Joe and Matt and I were thinking that it had been a while since we did any of the more advanced stuff. We've been kicking around the idea of having all the senior students get together for extra training lately, and we were wondering if you'd be willing to stay for an extra hour after the usual class on Tuesdays, or meet us over at the park on Saturday afternoons." If he says that he's too busy, then you and the other senior students might want to just train the advanced techniques on your own or as a group so that when he does have time to teach you, you won't have lost your edge. But whatever you do, take advantage of the classes focusing on basic techniques. You never progress past needing constant drilling on the basics.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by toejoe2k

    Assessment:
    My instructor knows his stuff. He's a good teacher and really enjoys what he does. However, he is not such a good business manager and doesn't see the need (or is not acknowleding the need) for split classes. He has yet to train up a black belt in the 12 years (or so) that he's been teaching, and I feel that this may be the reason. I've expressed my concerns to my instructor about not training in my own curriculum for several months and the feeling that I'm stagnent. Nothing has changed. We still routinely cover beginner level material again and again, or diverge into material that is not considered requirement for my level curriculum.
    Who would teach the split classes if they were split? Does he have enough manpower for it?

    It sounds like you need some sort of an 'advanced' class, maybe you could suggest having one one day a month, or as DDATFUS suggests getting together outside the dojo.

    I totally understand your frustration, I recently took over from my instructor at our club, and I have spent the past 8 months mostly just drilling basics with new people...it can get monotonous.

    However, once you reach shodan (or equivalent) I assume you will be teaching basics even more...is that correct?

    I really think informal, advanced classes are a good format to alleviate your issues, maybe talk to him about that. I wouldn't just give him an ultimatum, i'm sure he's doing his best and it seems you like training under him, probably a mistake to assume you need to leave.

    Hitting a plateau in martial arts is always frustrating, i'm in the same place myself, though for different reasons. Good luck man.
    Zachariah Zinn

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    There has to be a good reason why he hasnt trained up someone to black belt in 12 years, that is quite unnatural. It doesnt sound to me that being a good or bad business manager is the root, it maybe that the students do not stay long enough even though you have been there for four years.

    It certainly wont have anything to do with testing your patience.

    I wonder if, with all respect to your teacher,whether if in fact he is a good teacher because you are only seeing it from a low kyu perspective and if all he has ever shown you is low level stuff for four years, but happens to be a great guy and gets the message across well, then I am afraid to say there should be more to it than that.

    I think I agree with the others that it would be helpful for you to have some separate advanced tuition,at least that way you will see if he has more in the bag than what he has taught you over the past four years.

    Hope this helps.

    osu
    Trevor
    Trevor Gilbert
    ("If I had to select one quality, one personal characteristic that I regard as being most highly correlated with success, whatever the field, I would pick the trait of persistence. Determination. The will to endure to the end, to get knocked down seventy times and get up off the floor saying "Here goes number seventy-one" - Richard M. DeVos)

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    I'm also wondering about how you can safely integrate kids and adults in a jujutsu class?

    It occurs to me that doing any kind of grappling techniques with kids present would naturally put a brake on your skill development - for health and safety reasons, and because of not getting a good mix of partners of your own size and strength.

    EDIT: and an hour-long class is very short, even before you factor in the time it takes to corrall the kids. My suspicion is that you're not getting the training you need because it simply isn't available at your dojo.
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

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    Start looking for a new place to train. If your Sensei is not giving you what you need, look somewhere else. It is also possible to train at more than one club. Talk to him and let him know. If he cant do the job then go to someone who can. Never just tolerate it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toejoe2k
    I'd like to get the opinion of the esteemed members of this forum
    That leaves me out.
    Ricky Wood

  9. #9
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    Question A tough situation

    One that happens all to often.

    Your instructor may not have the time to do split classes and a full schedule. It sounds as if that's all he has, two 1-hour classes per week. Perhaps if he had one of the senior students teach the beginner level curriculum he would be free to teach the advanced stuff.

    If he indeed has the knowledge to pass on, it sounds as though there is a scheduling issue. If he has the demands of a full time job that would effect the dojo.
    With respect,

    Mitch Saret

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    If he indeed has the knowledge to pass on, it sounds as though there is a scheduling issue. If he has the demands of a full time job that would effect the dojo.
    This would be a big part of his problem. The part that I haven't mentioned is that it is very difficult to get him to re-invest his earnings into new equipment. It is very frustrating (to say the least) to work on torn mats and old gear. I am being very euphamistic when I say that he is very frugal. But, I've never come out and asked him about his financial situation as that is none of my business and inappropriate.

    There's a lot that I put up with but, there are also few options where I live. I could always go back to TKD but, I'd just never "feel" right about it.

    Thanks everyone for all of your input.

    ~Bill Richarsdon

  11. #11
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    Oh, sorry. I suppose that it would only be polite to clue you in on what I'm doing to work around this issue.

    I approached my instructor and requested private lessons twice per month. I offered him more money than what I pay on a monthly tuition schedule and even offered to drive him to my dojo (where I teach), furnish a meal after training, and furnish a training partner (one of the students who train with me). I did advise him that I will not be paying tuition for classes any longer unless they are private lessons. I did tell him that I'd continue to show up for class and help him teach as I did not want to show any disrespect by allowing the junior kyu students to speculate about my absence. I feel that this is amicable as I help him teach and I get practice teaching all in the same venue. I just won't be paying to review day one material everytime we get a new student through the door.
    He asked what I really wanted and I advised him that I'd like to see the classes split not only by adult/children divisions but, also beginner - 5th kyu and 4 kyu to Shodan. I expressed that I know that's not practical for him right now and I'd be willing to adjust my schedule so that we could meet for two hours, twice per month and train. I told him that I didn't just want to be exposed to the material but, that I wanted to know it how one *should* know it before progressing. Honestly, I did not even have to demonstrate all of my requirements at my last advancement test...and that has weighed on me.

    None the less, I think this is a workable solution and I thank all of you (even Woody) for your input and recommendations. I enjoy the maturity level and respect that is so commonly displayed in this forum and that is because of who frequents it. Thank you.

    ~Bill Richardson

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    You seem to have found yourself between a rock and a hard place. You have respect for your teacher and you seem to understand his financial situation, but the fact is whether he's got the money for new kit or not does not detract from the issue which is that he is supposed to be teaching you.

    In my opinion, it is not up to you as a 4th kyu to enter a training/business dialogue with your sensei. You are there to learn. However, there is nothing wrong in asking for his credentials nor how you might progress and how you might achieve that progression. If he is unable to answer those questions to your satisfaction then you have already been given the answer; "vote with your feet".

    It may be because you have been given the role of an assistant instructor, which I find hard to follow given your rank (which I say with due respect) that you feel like this but I should caution you not to use a mature, cards on the table approach. That is not the way if you really want to learn. If he is a good instructor, then put up with it and wait. Alternatively, as you suggest, just take private lessons from him (but 2 hours a month training??!!) and find somewhere else for your regular training.

    My twopennorth for what its worth.

    osu
    Trevor
    Trevor Gilbert
    ("If I had to select one quality, one personal characteristic that I regard as being most highly correlated with success, whatever the field, I would pick the trait of persistence. Determination. The will to endure to the end, to get knocked down seventy times and get up off the floor saying "Here goes number seventy-one" - Richard M. DeVos)

  13. #13
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    It really sounds like your dojo suffers from the too big/not enough instructors thing. In my very limited (just a shodan) experience more advanced training is more intimate, and better with a closer student to teacher ratio.

    So beyond what you've already done, personally I think you should try getting together (if this is permissable by your sensei) with equals and or seniors in your dojo for an informal class.

    Reason being that you can learn alot from people near enough to your level to "challenge" you. Whether you train regularly in kata type application or in randori doesnt matter, it's always good to have training partners who motivate you. I assume you're not getting this if you're just teaching basics constantly to brand new folks.

    The bottom line for me is if your sensei is good enough (I assume you can answer this question for yourself) then it is worth sticking out an "awkward period" if you can see a light at the end of the tunnel.
    Zachariah Zinn

  14. #14
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    Default A few alternatives

    Most of my esteemed friends here have already given some good advice, such as getting together with some other senior students. So I'm trying to think outside of the box here a little bit.

    1) Do you actually know all of your material for your next grade? If not then perhaps the thing to ask if is your sensei could show you the kata so that you can train them in your own time (take notes obviously).
    2) Do you have any friends who train in other martial arts? If not is there something closer to Jujutsu than TKD near you (judo or BJJ would be good). My training friend has started to train in BJJ with a friend and as such has learnt a great deal about his own techniques and more importantly about the concepts behind them. In short he now doesn't just know the technique he KNOWS the technique (to a greater extent). This has the added advantage of pressure testing your technique and perhaps helping you lose bad habits.
    3) Are there other senior students? Could you approach your sensei and suggest that you would like the opportunity to teach the junior kyu grades on a rota basis leaving him to assist the higher grades (effectively class split). Is there room?

    Don't know if any of this helps.
    Duncan Bowdler

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    I think you did the best thing possible--you approached your instructor,let him know there was a problem, and gave some ideas for solutions.
    I was in the same situation about 8-10 years ago, and what you wrote was so close to what I had happen it was spooky! I was at the same belt level, same # of years training, and almost the same age. I even started to assist in the class.
    I didn't say anything, and as time went on students began to drift away, starting with the high ranks. I heard the grumbling about not seeing what they needed to advance, and having the intermediate and advanced class doing the same things as the beginning classes. I don't know if the other students ever talked to the instructor, but I didn't.
    I watched as the students left, and money became a big issue, going from a month to month to doing a contract with a 3rd party didn't help.
    The school closed, and even though my instructor is still around, he never has started a new school. I have a copy of the chief instructors lineage sitting in front of me as I type this, and even though my instructor has one of the highest rankings in the system, he only promoted one person to a dan ranking in all his years of teaching. To put that in perspective, his instructor has 64, and one other has over 80.
    I don't what causes this to happen, I do have a few thoughts about it. I believe you did what I should have done. It might have made no difference at all, but I will never know. I hope in your case it does make a difference. I wish you the best of luck!
    jim watson

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