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Thread: empyhand kata = sai kata?

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    Default empyhand kata = sai kata?

    Years ago, when I practiced Shito Ryu karate, I was taught a sai kata which was basicly BassaiDai with sai.

    Has anyone hear of this being taught elsewhere? Using weapons to do existing emptyhand kata sounds rather unorthodox, but thats the way we learned sai.
    Liam Cognet

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    I'm not familiar with any sai kata meeting that description. Many instructors, lacking knowledge of sai/tonfa/kama katas, take open handed kata (usually a Pinan/Heinan) and add the weapon into them. I'll ask around and post what I find out.
    Pat Massey

    Student of Shorin Ryu
    Student of Aikikai Aikido

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    So I look on youtube and found:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqhBA7OxKHI

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_CLX5-0WFY

    Seems it's not just me.

    Anypop, I havent't trained in sai since my Shito Ryu days (I do Goju Ryu now).
    Liam Cognet

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    you may find the research and practice of this group rather interesting -

    http://www.kodoryu.com/

    whilst I am not a member of their group I do train on occasion with them and have found them to be excellent karateka with very well researched and interesting ideas on karate.
    Rgds,

    Jim Neeter
    Shorin Ryu Seito Matsumura Karate and Kobudo UK
    www.shoshinkanuk.org

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    Default Kobudo

    Bassai Dai works well with Sai and equally well with Tonfa. I teach the following weapons with Shotokan Kata:

    Heian Shodan (Pinan Nidan): Jo, Bo, Sai
    Heian Nidan (Pinan Shodan): Jo, Bo, Nunchaku
    Heian Sandan: Nunchaku
    Heian Yondan: Sai, Dip Dao (Chinese Butterfly Knives)
    Heian Godan: Bo
    Tekki Shodan: Tonfa, Jo
    Bassai Dai: Sai, Tonfa
    Jutte: Bo
    Empi: Tonfa
    Wankan: Sai

    Learning Kobudo applications as well as exploring empty handed Bunkai/Oyo keeps the kata interesting for students. Heian Godan is fantastic with a Rokushaku Bo and Heian Sandan works really well with Nunchaku.
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

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    Oh boy. ........
    Ed Boyd

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liam Cognet
    Years ago, when I practiced Shito Ryu karate, I was taught a sai kata which was basicly BassaiDai with sai.

    Has anyone hear of this being taught elsewhere? Using weapons to do existing emptyhand kata sounds rather unorthodox, but thats the way we learned sai.
    How did this teach you sai? Just curious.
    Ed Boyd

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    We didn't just do Basai Dai, we also did drills where a person with a bo would do pre-arranged attacks and the person with sai would block the attacks and counter.
    Liam Cognet

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    I am not a big proponent of doing empty hand kata with weapons. The value of weapons in my mind lies in their unique properties, which are best practiced with unique kata that make the greatest use of these properties.

    I'm sure there is benefit to using weapons with empty handed kata, but not enough to make it worth while in my opinion. Why limit a weapon's practice to a pattern designed to the strengths of empty handed fighting when you can practice kata and techniques made solely for that weapon and with a pattern that takes full advantage of it's strengths?

    I understand that some do this to learn more about the empty handed kata. I would think thier time would be better spent practicing new empty handed uses for the techniques rather then practicing empty handed techniques with a weapon they weren't designed to be used with. Changing the kata to meet the weapons design you say? Why not make a new kata then and face less limitations in tailoring it to the weapon's use?

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    Exactly. It seemed to be a weird practice to me for the resons stated above...that's why I was wondering if anyone else actualy did the same thing.

    I was just curious, but the previous post seems to have answered my question.
    Liam Cognet

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    So let me get this straight. You learn an empty hand kata with a weapon in your hand........So because someone doesn't know a sai kata-thus next to nothing or nothing about the sai they put a weapon in the hands of a kata they do know. Got any problems with the transmission (or lack of ) knowledge with this one?
    Reminds me of my open tournament days when anybody and their brother would make up some silly kata with little or no knowledge of the techniques or basics for a weapon. Here let me hang onto these kama while I do a series of jumpy-spinny-tornado-hurricane-tsunami kicks and then add in some "cool" moves I've seen in a movie and now I can enter the weapons division . And now (god help us) XMA-Xtreme Moronic Acrobats.
    Or the Numchuks expert who is really good at using their body as a platform for spinning the "chockus" without the faintest idea of how or what the thing is actually used for.
    To quote Charlie Brown, "AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!"
    I will be in my cave working on combining Naihanchi kata with a numchuk, spear, thowing star kata.

    Duane Wolfe
    Duane Wolfe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liam Cognet
    We didn't just do Basai Dai, we also did drills where a person with a bo would do pre-arranged attacks and the person with sai would block the attacks and counter.
    How did your mechanics for a jodan uke differ with sai vs without sai? How did your mechanics for tsuki with sai differ from seiken tsuki?

    Where there any differences? If not then there are problems. What you were doing wasn't Ryukyu kobudo it would have severe disinformation because they do not work the same.
    Ed Boyd

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    Quote Originally Posted by sauzin
    ...
    I'm sure there is benefit to using weapons with empty handed kata, but not enough to make it worth while in my opinion. Why limit a weapon's practice to a pattern designed to the strengths of empty handed fighting when you can practice kata and techniques made solely for that weapon and with a pattern that takes full advantage of it's strengths?
    ....
    No this is bad because Kobudo kihon is not Karate kihon. Your weapon's practice will probably be wrong. With the exception of chizikunbo, tekko or perhaps techu....doing empty hand kata with weapons is worthless at best and at its worst dangerous.
    Ed Boyd

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    Default Sai

    Ok, let's take an easy one. Heian Shodan with Sai...

    Lower Parry and Thrust

    Turn

    Lower Parry and hammer strike

    Turn

    Lower Parry and rising strike/block

    These techniques are as well suited to Kobudo as they are to Karate.

    Let's take another one:

    Heian Godan with Bo.

    Block with the left hand (left portion of the staff)

    Reverse strike with the right (strike with right portion of staff)

    Step up with the left hand in Mizuno Naguri No Kamae (the staff is now held vertically)

    Repeat on the opposite side.

    Morotte Uke (the left fist is near the right forearm as usual but as you are holding the staff the "eyes" of the "fists" must be alligned.

    And so on...

    If the correct weapon is chosen for the kata and appropriate applications chosen there is no inherant danger.

    But to each his own. Let's play nice.
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

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    What is not nice???

    Heian Shodan has Jodan uke. How do you apply this?
    Ed Boyd

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