The meaning of Kamae

[Bill Haynes]

It is really your intent and attitude (kamae) which define the effectiveness of the technique.

Not to hijack this, but I'm curious as to why people refer to "Kamae" as "attitude" or "taking an attitude". Where does this come from? The Kanji does not depict "attitude" whatsoever. Is this like the "Hoko no Kamae" thing where some people put "bear" in the description (where the Kanji have absolutely nothing to do with a bear) to place it in some kind of context? I'm genuinely curious about this.

[studious_ninja]

Not to hijack this, but I'm curious as to why people refer to "Kamae" as "attitude" or "taking an attitude". Where does this come from? The Kanji does not depict "attitude" whatsoever. Is this like the "Hoko no Kamae" thing where some people put "bear" in the description (where the Kanji have absolutely nothing to do with a bear) to place it in some kind of context? I'm genuinely curious about this.

Excellent point,thank you! I have seen people refer to Hoko as the 'bear posture', (and have even seen someone calling their dojo the hoko dojo, and using the kanji for bear which reads as kuma. haha!)
I was under the impression that kamae was kamae, meaning a body position from which to do something, not a body position that makes you feel a certain way.

[Joe Jackson]

Originally posted by Syd Sked:

I was under the impression that kamae was kamae, meaning a body position from which to do something, not a body position that makes you feel a certain way.

I concur wholeheartedly, Syd.

One crack pot teacher I had used to say that he could sit in a lounge chair with his legs crossed and still be in Ichimonji no Kamae, simply because he'd 'internalized' the kamae. It's all attitudinal, you see. It's what's in your heart. Only beginners need bother with actual postures...

Regards,

Joe Jackson.

[Bill Haynes]

Originally posted by Syd Sked:


I concur wholeheartedly, Syd.

One crack pot teacher I had used to say that he could sit in a lounge chair with his legs crossed and still be in Ichimonji no Kamae, simply because he'd 'internalized' the kamae. It's all attitudinal, you see. It's what's in your heart. Only beginners need bother with actual postures...

Regards,

Joe Jackson.

LOL! I guess some people could also do Ichimonji no Kamae while sitting on a toilet too! (though Jumonji seems more practical in that setting, lol).

So that must be figuratively then. The Kanji "Kamae" has the meaning of "combative position". The Kanji itself does not describe anything other than that (my pet peeve is someone calling Kamae "posture" or "stance", which is blatantly wrong. "Shisei" being posture, "Tachi" being stance.). IMHO, people who do not properly understand the Japanese add a mountain of hidden meanings and philosophies to terms where they are not needed. It's nothing secretive. It does not need a long philosophical explanation or secret not-obvious meaning. It's simply taking up a position against someone in a combative engagement. Sure, perception is created and controlled, but that's kind of a Honne/Tatamae Kyojitsu kind of thing. In a way, I would say that one cannot truly be in a Kamae by simply standing in a pre-defined position without someone else in front of them to take it up against (which define which Kamae is taken, to create a perception or a fitting defense).

Hoko no Kamae is more properly translated as "Surrounding Embrace Position". As my teacher would say "there ain't no bear there. Go ahead, draw the Kanji and show me the part that describes a bear". I think those that do not actually know the Japanese wind up adding all sorts of mystic meanings. I see this all the time: "Well this popular guy calls it that, so it must be that and I'm going to use it. By the way, yes I am a teacher and I don't think learning the language is necessary because everything I need to know is already translated into books in English by the fine folks over at Ohara Publications".

[George Kohler]

Hoko no Kamae is more properly translated as "Surrounding Embrace Position".

I think the reason why in the past people were using "bear" was because "surrounding embrace" could also mean "bear hug" in English terms.

[Joe Jackson]

Originlly posted by Bill Haynes:

The Kanji "Kamae" has the meaning of "combative position". The Kanji itself does not describe anything other than that (my pet peeve is someone calling Kamae "posture" or "stance", which is blatantly wrong. "Shisei" being posture, "Tachi" being stance.). IMHO, people who do not properly understand the Japanese add a mountain of hidden meanings and philosophies to terms where they are not needed. It's nothing secretive. It does not need a long philosophical explanation or secret not-obvious meaning. It's simply taking up a position against someone in a combative engagement.

Aaaaahhhh... Sensible attitude. What a refreshing sensation! You should start up your own school, Bill, and save a lot of people a lot of wasted training...

Regards,

Joe Jackson.

[George Kohler]

I disagree...

構 The kanji for Kamae is made up of two pictographs:
木1 - Tree
冓2 - Interlocking framework of a house (original chinese). Or To build up, construct; A hidden secret chamber inside the palace

Together they form the meaning, at least the chinese meaning, of "Construct, Form." The Japanese meaning shows to be "posture; build; pretend."

The meaning has nothing to do with "combat" and of all the dictionaries I've seen all of them mention "posture."

So what does posture mean? Let's look...

American Heritage Dictionary:
n.
1. a. A position of the body or of body parts: a sitting posture.
b. An attitude; a pose: assumed a posture of angry defiance.
2. A characteristic way of bearing one's body; carriage: stood with good posture.
3. Relative placement or arrangement: the posture of the buildings on the land.
4. A stance or disposition with regard to something: "Those bases are essential to our military posture in the Middle East" (Gerard Smith).
5. A frame of mind affecting one's thoughts or behavior; an overall attitude.

Random House Unabridged Dictionary:
-noun
1. the relative disposition of the parts of something.
2. the position of the limbs or the carriage of the body as a whole: poor posture; a sitting posture.
3. an affected or unnatural attitude: He struck a comic posture.
4. a mental or spiritual attitude: His ideas reveal a defensive posture.
5. one's image or policy as perceived by the public, other nations, etc.: The company wants to develop a more aggressive marketing posture.
6. position, condition, or state, as of affairs.

Based on some of the training that I have received, there are certain "attitudes" that you assume when you go into a posture. Example: "From this side will not come the first strike."

[Bill Haynes]

When asking a native Japanese (I have the fortunate capability of asking 2 of them who are less than 10 feet away here in my office, and one of them does Budo) what the term "Kamae" means, I get "getting ready to fight". I then ask what "Shisei" means, and my response is "posture".

Let's say a guy at a bus stop is slouching.

One would not say:

Busutei ni iru otoko no hito wo mittei kudasai. Kamae ga warui desu!
"look at that man at the bus stop, he has bad atittude/stance!"

One would say:

Busutei ni iru otoko no hito wo mittei kudasai. Shisei ga warui desu!
"look at that man at the bus stop, he has bad posture!"

Kamae specifically references fighting. What "Kamae" is the guy in at the bus stop? Why would he even be in a Kamae while waiting for the bus? The answer is simple, he's not in a Kamae. The correct term is Shisei. Posture. You cannot mix and match the term "posture" in Japanese language, there are more specific words depending on the situation. Perhaps in English we can narrow things down more, where in Japanese more is assumed. But still, a frog is a frog. And you wouldn't call a frog a chicken.

So putting up American English dictionary sources for posture doesn't quite explain it. I would agree, posture can include attitude. I can also say that when I take a Kamae, I would also have an attitude. I also have an attitude when I am standing in the Food Lion checkout line.

[George Kohler]

The kanji I get for "position" is not even kamae. Maybe your Japanese friends don't understand the English meanings?

And "Kamae" certainly does not mean "getting ready to fight" and does not always refer to "fighting."

[Bill Haynes]

The kanji I get for "position" is not even kamae. Maybe your Japanese friends don't understand the English meanings?

And "Kamae" certainly does not mean "getting ready to fight" and does not always refer to "fighting."

Ok, not ALWAYS. It means "to get ready". You don't see the term Kamae outside of fighting very often. If one is getting for an exam, one could say that you set your mind to the exam by taking a Kamae. That's kind of stretching it though, and not very common. In the context of Budo, when using the term "Kamae", it refers to fighting.

When you bow in to class, you do not say "Kamae wo tadashite, Sensei ni Rei!" do you?? Of course not. If you spoke Japanese you would know how absurd that is! You say "Shisei wo Tadashite, Sensei ni Rei!".

But I would say I would take a native speaker's interpretation over a Westerner's when it comes to their own language.

If you are so bent on this literal word of "posture", I implore you to read up on "Shisei" and how the word is properly used. You will find that it means "posture" in the way that you are referring to.

[George Kohler]

We have to remember that during the early periods of Japan, including the Edo period, all warriors were always ready for anything, while they were bathing, eating, and resting/relaxing. There are many stories where warriors were ready for anything. Some of these stories were included in movies based on those eras. As John Lindsey explained to me, while he was in Iraq he had to be "switched on" which means you always have to be ready for anything and don't be surprised.

If this is true then "waiting anywhere with a slouch" could not be a "shisei" based on teachings passed down by Takamatsu Sensei. If he did then he would have called it "shizen no shisei."

[Bill Haynes]

I see where you are coming from. It's not illogical. Sheesh I hope I don't come across as attacking in any way! The interweb makes it hard to convey feelings!

In the way you are saying, it's like one would always be walking around in a specific Kamae at all times. Sort of like walking into a mall in Ichimonji no Kamae...all the time (Shizen Tai/Shizen no Kamae do not fit this either - they are stationary positions). I actually would like to see that!

"Hey Russel, why are you walking around with your hand stretched out in front, feet moving like a crab?"

"Shh, I'm in my ready position - I could be attacked at any time and therefore must take a Kamae in preparation for it! I'm especially mindful of my Kamae as we get closer to the food court."

Always being ready for anything, that certainly makes sense. I think that's more of a "big picture" thing than the topic we are discussing here: specifically Kamae.

[George Kohler]

Sheesh I hope I don't come across as attacking in any way! The interweb makes it hard to convey feelings!

No, I didn't feel like you were attacking. And I hope you didn't feel the same.

[George Kohler]

"Hey Russel, why are you walking around with your hand stretched out in front, feet moving like a crab?"

Hey what's wrong with that? Yeah, so what if I do walk around like that all the time with my ninja mask on?

[MakotoDojo]

Hi George,

in Tanemura Sensei's Hanbo Jutsu book on page 12 it states:

"Kamae means castle stance of the body, used both in defense in the physical and spiritual worlds."

Then of course we have "other meanings" of what Kamae is which is kuden...

So I don't know if this "castle" is part of the basic dictionary meaning, or more of a kuden "useage" meaning...

Just adding to the mix...

Regards,