Sword Work

[Joe Jackson]

Originally posted by John Hidalgo:

When you lear how to use a variety of weapons you learn how to take anything that is close at hand. All weapons break down into either edge weapons, flexile weapons, blunt force weapons and stick weapons. Pretty much everything else is a variation of one ore more of those themes.

Hi, John. I disagree that training in so many weapons will mean you can master them. In fact, I fear there is a danger of becoming a Jack of all trades...

If you want to see where you taijutsu is, put a weapon in your hand.

Again, I disagree. You can have great taijutsu but be hopeless at certain weapons (I don't mean you personally, John). I think far too much is made of the importance of taijutsu when using some weapons. It's as if it's become a sin to rely on arms and hands. Some classical bojutsu is done with a lot of arm and not very much of anything else. I know it's important to be able to move well, but I completely reject the hackneyed line that if your taijutsu is good, then you can effectively use any hand-held weapon.

if you are using a bo staff all of your movement becomes easier to see because the bo becomes and extension of your body. The same is true of the sword.

Boy, have I heard that line a lot over the years! A sword wielded by a master is not an extension of his body. It is a weapon held in his hands that he needs to grip and swing the same as someone picking up a kettle and putting it on the stove. Difference of skill required, but just as mundane in its reality.

Anyway, thanks for giving your opinions without childish resort to personally attacking me, John. No doubt more on this forum agree with you than with me.

Regards,

Joe Jackson.

[Oniyama]

Hi, John. I disagree .....

Joe, I am going to ask the following questions in all seriousness:

1) How old are you?
2) What martial arts have you studied and for how long in each?

There are legitimate reasons for these two questions. I'll get into why once I have your answers. Thanks.

[Joe Jackson]

Originally posted by John Hidalgo:

Joe, I am going to ask the following questions in all seriousness:

1) How old are you?
2) What martial arts have you studied and for how long in each?

There are legitimate reasons for these two questions. I'll get into why once I have your answers. Thanks.

Hi, John. I suspect that your questions are posed so as you can launch some sort of critique on me (given the fragment of mine that you quoted).

Nevertheless, I'll answer them factually (although I consider it amusing that you don't want to be open and say why you need to know these things before I answer you). With this in mind, it is an interesting thought that if the questions posed by you could in any way provide you with ammunition to FAIRLY discredit me or debunk my expressed views or behavior on this forum, I'd hardly be cooperating with your little 'interrogation'. I'd simply lie or ignore it. As it so happens, I'm as straight up as you can get (though not as gullible), so here is all that you need to know.

1. I am fourty six years old (not that it's any of your business).
2. I have studied and/or do study the following martial arts:

MJER Iaido (12 years experience).
Kyokushin Karate (12 years experience).
Bujinkan (15 years experience).
Genbukan (privately with two godan friends, 6 years experience).
Jinenkan (privately with a nidan acquaintance, 3 years experience).
Jiu-jitsu (ground fighting) taught to me by my father (10 years experience).
Special forces (3 years experience).
I also did some security work whilst at University.

These are not listed in order and, obviously, some of them overlap.

I consider every one of the above to have been of benifit to me. But, I certainly don't see any of them as being without fault. I would say that the problem is not with any given martial art, but with peoples' unrealistic perception of it.

I don't have a high oppinion of myself, but I do have a strong idea of what does and does not make rational sense (even if it's not what I'd like to believe).

Now, what about you, John? How old are you and what have you done?

Regards,

Joe Jackson.

[Oniyama]

[QUOTE=Joe Jackson]
Now, what about you, John? How old are you and what have you done?/QUOTE]

I think that is a fair question.

I am 42 and have been training in the Bujinkan since the mid 80's. I recently got back from my second trip to Japan where I received my godan. I've also done some Aikido, Judo and amature Sumo.

There reason for asking my questions, frankly, was because in reviewing this and other posts you have made, your questions seemed to be those that would be made by someone who was a) much younger and b) someone who was not in the Bujinkan (or any of the other x-kans). I have seen the same type and tone of questions posed by much younger (and, yes, much less mature) people who were coming from a MMA or Brazillian Juijutsu background. Before I made such an assumption, I wanted to make sure I had my facts right.

To be honest, most of your posts that I have read have seemed to be more geared towards stirring up controversy and trouble rather than genuine queries. (In fact I think it has landed you in E-budo Hell at least once.) May be I am reading that into what you have posted, but it sure seems that way to me. It also strikes me as odd, given the background that you have posted, that you would be asking such questions. I usually see newbies asking such things. Whether you are intending to or not, you are coming off like a troll. You may wnt to look into this.

[John Anderson]

Jinenkan (privately with a nidan acquaintance, 3 years experience).

Hi Joe,
Could you say where you had this training? Is it in Kent? Somewhere else in the UK?
I thought I knew everyone with any Jinenkan Dan rank in the UK and they are all based either in Wales or in the North West of England, certainly nowhere near where you are. Indeed, I'm not aware of any current Jinenkan Nidan anywhere in the UK.

Sorry to question you but my spider senses get all tingly whenever I come across people who claim they have had Jinenkan training in the UK.

[George Kohler]

Genbukan (privately with two godan friends, 6 years experience).

We have rules that do not allow us to teach non-members (except for the first month or if they are family members). And you were training with them for 6 years? I find this hard to believe especially with two godan. Why would they risk their membership (and their relationship with Tanemura Sensei) teaching a non-member?

Please explain.

[Oniyama]

2. I have studied and/or do study the following martial arts:

MJER Iaido (12 years experience).
Kyokushin Karate (12 years experience).
Bujinkan (15 years experience).
Genbukan (privately with two godan friends, 6 years experience).
Jinenkan (privately with a nidan acquaintance, 3 years experience).
Jiu-jitsu (ground fighting) taught to me by my father (10 years experience).
Special forces (3 years experience).
I also did some security work whilst at University.

These are not listed in order and, obviously, some of them overlap.

Given the queries made by George and John, I have to ask a similar question. Who did you train with in the Bujinkan. Also, you don't mention any ranks for any of the arts that you say you have studies. True, rank is not everything, but it is od that you don't mention any rank at all. Also, I have to ask this as it is a red flag to me whenever, someone makes such a claim: What special forces unit were you with and when?

[Joe Jackson]

Wow! The inquisition is well and truly under way, isn't it? Although, I do detect slightly different attitudes from the three of you.

I'll endeavor to answer your questions as satisfactorily as I can. In advance, however, any information that I give you is entirely my prerogative and some of what you ask is not reasonable. No member of this forum should be expected to give out facts and figures on their budo life as demanded by anyone else.

Originally posted by John Hidalgo:

There reason for asking my questions, frankly, was because in reviewing this and other posts you have made, your questions seemed to be those that would be made by someone who was a) much younger and b) someone who was not in the Bujinkan (or any of the other x-kans). I have seen the same type and tone of questions posed by much younger (and, yes, much less mature) people who were coming from a MMA or Brazillian Juijutsu background. Before I made such an assumption, I wanted to make sure I had my facts right.

To be honest, most of your posts that I have read have seemed to be more geared towards stirring up controversy and trouble rather than genuine queries. (In fact I think it has landed you in E-budo Hell at least once.) May be I am reading that into what you have posted, but it sure seems that way to me. It also strikes me as odd, given the background that you have posted, that you would be asking such questions. I usually see newbies asking such things. Whether you are intending to or not, you are coming off like a troll. You may wnt to look into this.

John, thanks for making yourself clear. Basically, you are saying that I sound like an immature and insincere troublemaker. I can assure you that you could not be more wrong. I am surprised, somewhat, because I am in fact an honest, experienced and intelligent individual who has taken a lot more insulting comments from some members of this forum than I have ever dished out.

I genuinely appreciate your telling me how I appear to you and some others. I do not wish to appear this way. However, I would respectfully suggest that part of the problem is an unwillingness to talk openly about the subjects of ninpo and such by some people on this forum.

I believe one thing that needs to be looked at by some members of this forum is that they appear to many outside their martial arts as unreasonable followers who come down with spiteful vitriol on anyone who challenges their beliefs. This is unfortunate for intelligent and humorous people such as I, who merely want to discuss and question with an open mind and who are just as happy to be criticized as criticize. I would also suggest that there is a lot more ego present among these aspirants of enlightenment that their supposed humbleness would allow for.

I am not labeling you personally, here, John, as you have been quite reasonable with your language toward me. I am well aware of this.

Originally posted by John Anderson:

Hi Joe,
Could you say where you had this training? Is it in Kent? Somewhere else in the UK?
I thought I knew everyone with any Jinenkan Dan rank in the UK and they are all based either in Wales or in the North West of England, certainly nowhere near where you are. Indeed, I'm not aware of any current Jinenkan nidan anywhere in the UK.

Sorry to question you but my spider senses get all tingly whenever I come across people who claim they have had Jinenkan training in the UK.

Hello, John.

My time of training with the Jinenkan nidan was whilst I was living in America. He was an acquaintance and was not privy to my prior martial arts experience.

The only Takamatsu-den training I have done in the UK was Bujinkan.

As it happens, you were the reason I wanted to try Jinenkan Jissen Kobudo and I consider it to be the best example of Takamatsu-den I've seen. The way the organization is run and the manner in which you conduct yourselves is exemplary and I commend you on that.

Kind regards.

Originally posted by George Kohler:

We have rules that do not allow us to teach non-members (except for the first month or if they are family members). And you were training with them for 6 years? I find this hard to believe especially with two godan. Why would they risk their membership (and their relationship with Tanemura Sensei) teaching a non-member?

Please explain.

Good day to you too, George...

The two godan I trained with no longer are members of the Genbukan. They are good friends of mine and, naturally, I will not be naming them.

The training we did was over a six year period. Strictly, it was not six years without a pause as I was in and out of the country at the time. However, I was practicing whilst abroad as well. Also, I should say that they were not godan for the entire time.

Our sessions started as an exchange of skills, but eventually became pure Genbukan lessons as I felt the technical skill they exhibited was of sounder type than I had developed over my Bujinkan years. This was more of a consequence of the Bujinkan teachers I had than the Bujinkan syllabus itself.

Originally posted by John Hidalgo:

Given the queries made by George and John, I have to ask a similar question. Who did you train with in the Bujinkan. Also, you don't mention any ranks for any of the arts that you say you have studies. True, rank is not everything, but it is od that you don't mention any rank at all. Also, I have to ask this as it is a red flag to me whenever, someone makes such a claim: What special forces unit were you with and when?

I am not one to blow my own trumpet, John. In fact, I feel decidedly uncomfortable when talking about myself to this extent. I also consider experience is what most counts in martial arts.

Despite my fifteen years in the Bujinkan, I was never graded above yondan. I have trained in Japan a few times, but never took my godan test. I certainly consider myself to be of Shihan ability, though (not that that means much nowadays).

My father never graded me, but taught me good practical self defence.

I hold a sandan in Kyokushin and a nidan in MJER Iaido.

I hold no ranks in either the Genbukan or Jinenkan and have never been a member of either.

Also, I do not train in any of the x-kans anymore. Although, I do still practice with a couple of skilful friends every now and then.

The special forces unit I fought with was Eastern European and I was in action for two years and stationed without action for one. It is something that I deeply regret. However, I can say that, despite being involved in violence, I never killed anyone. It was a life changing experience. That is all I will ever tell you.

Well, that just about wraps it up.

In summary, I would say I am an experienced martial artists who approaches his interest in a realistic and self-effacing way. I believe humour is an important part of modern martial arts training.

I believe I have been more than reasonable in answering as much as I have and I have been mindful of not embarrassing anyone who I trained with in the past. I am a private individual who should be able to post his views (non personal) without having to legitimize them. I assure you I am well read and no fool.

Thus ends my participation in this trial (that was humour, by the way).

Genuine kind regards to you all.

Joe Jackson.

[Spookyfbi]

I certainly consider myself to be of Shihan ability,

Wow sorry I really can't believe someone would say that online. Funnily enough though something similar to this came up on another forum and a long time Bujinkan practioner pointed out that you're a Shihan when the other Shihan start referring to you as one, regardless of what your rank maybe.

and a nidan in MJER Iaido.

Do you still practice MJER? Can I ask who you train with if you do?

[Oniyama]

Wow! The inquisition is well and truly under way, isn't it?

Well, if you feel that you are being scrutinized, you may want to ask yourself. What have I done in my posting to draw such scrutiny?"

Please consider the following:
1) For one who claims as much experience in that arts you have previously listed, your questions, particularly in regards to weapons and Takamatsu-den arts, seem incongruous.
2) When asked about your past instructors, you provided no answer at all.
3) Similar to #2, while you were willing to tell us how much of a regretable and life changing experience you military service was, you were not willing to tell us what special forces unit you served with.
4) You said that while you were ranked in the Bujinkan at 4th dan, you would consider yourself at shihan level.

Also consider this: Many of us have been on this and other forums for several years. We know each other either from meeting in person, meeting each other's instructors or having enough interaction to develop a certain level of trust. We also have been aroung log enough to have seen out share of traolls, flamers and other various and sundry idiots.

When someone comes around making the claims that you do but is not willing to say who they trained with, it draws scrutiny. Add to that the sorts of questions tha you ask, you will definitely get put under a microsope. Right now you are like a stranger in a small town who doesn't want to tell anyone anything about himself. No let's say that you, the stranger, stand up and say "I'm a doctor". We reply, "Oh, at what university did you study medicine?" To which you reply, "Well, I won't tell you". Doesn't breed a lot of trust, does it? Am I making sense, here?

In the interest of being equitable here is my information as it applies to the current conversation:
My first instructor in he Bujinkan was Dr. R. Kelly Hill in Houston. I then trained with Robert Norduft, Bob Higginbotham and John Lindsay. For the last few years I have been training with Brian Tritico. Locally, I sometimes train with Rob Boger. As far as my ran goes and how I feel about that rank, I am 5th and while I am honored that I was given the test, I think that I have a lot of work to do to live up to it. As far as military service goes, I was a paratrooper in the 82nd Airborne division for two years. I was a forwad observer for field artillery. My unit was B battery 1/319th Airborne Field Artillery Regiment. As we were in peacetime during my tour of duty, I never saw combat.

So, the bottom line is if you find yourself under the microscope, chances are you did something to put yourself there.

[studious_ninja]

Anyone care to post a link to a thread containing the questions that Joe is asking which mark him as an 'outsider'. For what it's worth, I tend to agree with him concerning the training with weapons...

[Oniyama]

Frankly, I think that weapons training, including sword training, is important fot the following reasons (some repeated from previous post):

1) When you lear how to use a variety of weapons you learn how to take anything that is close at hand. All weapons break down into either edge weapons, flexile weapons, blunt force weapons and stick weapons. Pretty much everything else is a variation of one ore more of those themes. Example, I've seen Hatsumi-soke do somethings with a tea cup that I would not want to be on receiving end of.

2) If you want to see where you taijutsu is, put a weapon in your hand. All the elements of timing, distancing, balance, kamae and such become very apparent. For example, if you are using a bo staff all of your movement becomes easier to see because the bo becomes and extension of your body. The same is true of the sword.

3) The weapon retention skills needed for any of the old weapons also apply to firearms. After all, 50% of police officers that are shot, are shot with their own weapons.

4) In order to counter someone who has a weapon when you don't, it is helpful to train with weapons so that you know what can be done with them.

5) Weapons training can be used to give a different perspective on how to do basic techniques. This is particularly true in stick fighting (especially hanbo). Example: Doing ganseki nage or oni kudaki with a hanbo can help give you new insight into those techniques or, at least, reinforce what you have already learned.

I feel that training with weapons is not a useless exercise in keeping old traditions alive but a way to test and improve one's taijutsu and to develop the skills to take anything close at hand and use it to effectively defend yourself.

[studious_ninja]

So no links?

Frankly, I think that weapons training, including sword training, is important fot the following reasons (some repeated from previous post):

1) When you lear how to use a variety of weapons you learn how to take anything that is close at hand. All weapons break down into either edge weapons, flexile weapons, blunt force weapons and stick weapons. Pretty much everything else is a variation of one ore more of those themes. Example, I've seen Hatsumi-soke do somethings with a tea cup that I would not want to be on receiving end of.

2) If you want to see where you taijutsu is, put a weapon in your hand. All the elements of timing, distancing, balance, kamae and such become very apparent. For example, if you are using a bo staff all of your movement becomes easier to see because the bo becomes and extension of your body. The same is true of the sword.

3) The weapon retention skills needed for any of the old weapons also apply to firearms. After all, 50% of police officers that are shot, are shot with their own weapons.

4) In order to counter someone who has a weapon when you don't, it is helpful to train with weapons so that you know what can be done with them.

5) Weapons training can be used to give a different perspective on how to do basic techniques. This is particularly true in stick fighting (especially hanbo). Example: Doing ganseki nage or oni kudaki with a hanbo can help give you new insight into those techniques or, at least, reinforce what you have already learned.

I feel that training with weapons is not a useless exercise in keeping old traditions alive but a way to test and improve one's taijutsu and to develop the skills to take anything close at hand and use it to effectively defend yourself.

[Oniyama]

So no links?

Sorry. No links. What links were you expecting? Pretty much everything in my last post was personal observation and opinion. The only thing that might be link worthy is the bit about 50% of police officers who are shot are shot with their own weapons. I remember hearing that from John Lindsay several years ago when he was still in the Bujinkan. If you really need that confirmed, it woud require some research. Do you have any relavent links to share?

[studious_ninja]

I had requested links to the threads which show what parts of Joe's posts portrayed him as an 'outsider' and a 'troll'. Then you posted a list of why you thought weapons training was important. Somebody missed something somewhere.