Anatomy of a real fight

[shugenja_09]

Which guys?
I ask because I always here pple going "I sparred/randori/etc those MMA/BJJ guys and it worked just fine." Then I meet said pple and they get rolled up quickly. Basically rolling with a BJJ white belt or a noob in MMA is not the same and rolling with a Purple or higher or a guy with several fights under his belt. I would expect a BBT BB to beat a BJJ white belt but I seen, and have done myself, BBT BB get submitted constantly by a BJJ Purple belt.

And a general FYI, we use a MMA format to train now in the Army (Marines as well and the Air Force is coming on board) we have had numerous CQ and H2H incidents in both Iraq and Afgahnistan. Soliders have subdued and KILLED insurgents with what they learned from MACP (which has BJJ as it base then MT, Judo, Boxing, Wrestling and Kali) so I can say MMA has been battlefield tested and proven.

What exactly are you asking for ? And yes, I know you use MMA in the Marine corps. Martial arts programs, a very good friend of mine who has been a Marine for about ten years has been in that program, he also trains in ninpo pretty much full time in his area, not MMA. I'm sure you probably know this, but just because you can kill someone doesn't mean you are practicing an effective Martial Art, it doesn't require training to "KILL", we've been doing that since the dawn of time. There's more to a Martial Art being effective than merely being able to kill your opponent. That would be the art of the Murderer, not the Warrior.

P.S. - The first couple of sentences of yours seem pretty confrontational towards someone you don't even know. Not a very wise or tactful strategy. Manners are usually developed when one understands and practices true Martial Arts.

Keep Going

[Asia]

'm sure you probably know this, but just because you can kill someone doesn't mean you are practicing an effective Martial Art, it doesn't require training to "KILL", we've been doing that since the dawn of time. There's more to a Martial Art being effective than merely being able to kill your opponent. That would be the art of the Murderer, not the Warrior.

You are sourly mistaken. The goal of some MA is to KILL another person, that goes for the vast majority of weapons based arts. You don't use a tsuki with a sword to tickle a person. The intent is to kill. So if you can kill with your MA and thats one of its goals then its is indeed effective.

So bottomline. The prime goal of ALL MA is to bring harm to another person, either through pain or death. That is the one common thread that makes them MARTIAL. If your training fails to achieve that then you and or art isn't effective.

P.S. - The first couple of sentences of yours seem pretty confrontational towards someone you don't even know. Not a very wise or tactful strategy. Manners are usually developed when one understands and practices true Martial Arts.

How do you know it isn't a wise strategy. What is your experience in tactical operations. You don't know me either so what have I lost by being confrontational? Also you didn't answer the question posed.

[shugenja_09]

How do you know it isn't a wise strategy. What is your experience in tactical operations. You don't know me either so what have I lost by being confrontational? Also you didn't answer the question posed.

The reason that confrontational approach isn't a wise or effective strategy is because it has FAILED to get you what you were seeking which was for me to answer your question. Which I am now more commited to not give you. Just as in a physical confrontation your aggressiveness has telegraphed your intentions and not yielded a positive effect toward your goal. As far as your other questions/implecations, those are none of your buisness, they will aid me in my pursuit, not yours. I see nothing constructive coming out of our conversations and do not wish to converse with you any more. Good Luck in life and your pursuits, I hope you get what you want out of it.

Keep Going

[DWeidman]

The reason that confrontational approach isn't a wise or effective strategy is because it has FAILED to get you what you were seeking which was for me to answer your question.

I somehow suspect Asia was being rhetorical with his question.

Anyone can say ANYTHING they like online. So saying that the BJK stuff works against MMA guys can mean one of several things:

1. BJK stuff really does work just like you said
2. You are a very talented fighter - and that it is more about you than the art.
3. You sparred people who are less experienced than you are.
4. You are a liar.


There are probably more.

Without some additional information this is all intellectual masturbation.

So unless you are willing to post video so everyone can see for themselves... then this is all hearsay anyway.

Don't worry. I am not going to ask you for it. You don't need to prove anything to anyone.

-Daniel

PS. In the future, you may want to be careful about saying things like, "In regards to Mixed Martial Sports, I have never trained in any of those arts, but I have had a few randori sessions w/ some of these guys. Taijutsu works just fine on them, trust me."
Unless you are willing to back that up with details, it is best to not bring up claims. The burden of proof is on you to prove you have done as you said. If you are unwilling to back it up -- then don't say it in the first place. If you still want to make claims you don't want to back up - then expect to be called a liar.

[shugenja_09]

I somehow suspect Asia was being rhetorical with his question.

Anyone can say ANYTHING they like online. So saying that the BJK stuff works against MMA guys can mean one of several things:

1. BJK stuff really does work just like you said
2. You are a very talented fighter - and that it is more about you than the art.
3. You sparred people who are less experienced than you are.
4. You are a liar.


There are probably more.

Without some additional information this is all intellectual masturbation.

So unless you are willing to post video so everyone can see for themselves... then this is all hearsay anyway.

Don't worry. I am not going to ask you for it. You don't need to prove anything to anyone.

-Daniel

PS. In the future, you may want to be careful about saying things like, "In regards to Mixed Martial Sports, I have never trained in any of those arts, but I have had a few randori sessions w/ some of these guys. Taijutsu works just fine on them, trust me."
Unless you are willing to back that up with details, it is best to not bring up claims. The burden of proof is on you to prove you have done as you said. If you are unwilling to back it up -- then don't say it in the first place. If you still want to make claims you don't want to back up - then expect to be called a liar.

I was simply stateing that in my experience w/ a couple of MMA guys that my Taijutsu was effective in that situation. That's all. I'm sure I can talk the guy I sparred with into becomeing an E-Budo member so he can tell you of this experience, and as far as being called a liar, your the first one to say that about me, it is very insulting and I don't see the need for that type of behavior or those implications. I share my thoughts in hopes of generating ideas and increasing my own understanding, but when people come at me w/ some disrespectful attitude, then I no longer value thier opinions or wish to converse with them. I don't validate my experiences and beliefs on others acceptance of them.

[insert_username]

Just my thoughts on all this;

Firstly, regarding the military training using BJJ etc and using it to kill so called insurgents; I agree with Mr. Scarborough. That doesn't prove anything. Many of these so called insurgents have no martial arts or hand to hand experience. Now, I'm not downplaying the effectiveness of BJJ and MMA, because I'm an advocate of the practitioner more than the practice (GENERALLY speaking) and a few good friends of mine and a brother do MMA and they're all skilled fighters. I prefer to test my martial skills against other martial artists of experience and known skill. That way you can gauge accurately, in my opinion, the effectiveness of a martial art. Killing an "insurgent" who has no complex form of CQ combatives training isn't sufficient proof in my eyes. These chaps are guerilla fighters; by mere definition of that, I don't need to say much more...Unless it's that difficult to understand.

Secondly, I once taught a Royal Marine who I see every now and then still, and he has been to Iraq. I asked him to show me the combatives they teach, and I can say that it is more along the lines of "bang him out" as opposed to "get close and grapple". They train to strike open points due to their wearing body armour.

Regards,

Geoffrey Shanks

[niten ninja]

He wasn't calling you a liar, shugenja. He was saying it is not possible to tell if what you say is truth.

I believe the example of marines fighting insurgents is in response to the "X-kan is good because samurai used it on the battlefield," rather than as a seperate argument towards it's effectiveness.

[Asia]

The reason that confrontational approach isn't a wise or effective strategy is because it has FAILED to get you what you were seeking which was for me to answer your question. Which I am now more commited to not give you. Just as in a physical confrontation your aggressiveness has telegraphed your intentions and not yielded a positive effect toward your goal. As far as your other questions/implecations, those are none of your buisness, they will aid me in my pursuit, not yours. I see nothing constructive coming out of our conversations and do not wish to converse with you any more. Good Luck in life and your pursuits, I hope you get what you want out of it.

Keep Going

Why are you threatened by questions? If you wiling to post your experiences online then you should expect some questions and not think everyone will just take your word for it.

[Asia]

I was simply stateing that in my experience w/ a couple of MMA guys that my Taijutsu was effective in that situation. That's all. I'm sure I can talk the guy I sparred with into becomeing an E-Budo member so he can tell you of this experience, and as far as being called a liar, your the first one to say that about me, it is very insulting and I don't see the need for that type of behavior or those implications. I share my thoughts in hopes of generating ideas and increasing my own understanding, but when people come at me w/ some disrespectful attitude, then I no longer value thier opinions or wish to converse with them. I don't validate my experiences and beliefs on others acceptance of them.

Gee I don't see anywhere that I called you a liar I asked for detail and gave you a reason why I was asking. You feel threatened by that, why?

[shugenja_09]

Gee I don't see anywhere that I called you a liar I asked for detail and gave you a reason why I was asking. You feel threatened by that, why?

I don't feel threatened, just offended. I would of had no problem answering your question if you had been a little more respectful, and by the way I didn't say you called me a liar, I was refering to the post dweidman made. I feel he indirectly called me a liar towards the end of his post. "ASIA" I also would like to make it clear that I don't feel threatened by your's or anyones questions, I just think that people need to be a bit more respectful, I'm not asking you to agree with or believe everything that I am saying, think what you want about my perspectives, just when you offend someone don't expect that person to handle it in a way that you will like or understand, and I really don't think you understand what I'm getting at here, but that's ok, let's get back to the topic and not let our differences become the topic. So to finally answer your question- "Which Guy's?", he is a person I know that is no one famous, just someone who I think has alot of good fighting ability from his MMA training. The reason I decided to ask him to sparr was because I didn't think I would fare well against him, and I wanted to see if my training would be effecive against him, but you see, there's still no "proof" for even my clarification of this, but none the less, that is the answer to your question. It's funny, when I made that statement in my post, I thought that was the most irrelevant part of it, my main focus was what I was saying. The post wasn't about a claim, it was about generating information.

Keep Going

[shugenja_09]

Yes, I agree whole-heartedly; physical fitness and conditioning is one of the most overlooked parts of martial arts training. Oh, and be careful about saying "trust me", you might get someone saying to you "why should I?" as if you really care.

Kind regards,

Geoffrey Shanks

You were right Mr. Shanks.

Keep Going

[Dangerman]

In regards to the issue of lethality, and how BBT uses "techniques that can't be practiced in the ring", I would say that CONTROL is the prime goal, not simply the death or defeat of your opponent. Life, and combat, is not simply about two physical objects battering each other until one fails to exist. Yes, BBT contains techniques that can be used with lethal or crippling force. Most MA's do. I have not been taught to use these techniques to the point where I could never spar or fight because I only know how to kill or maim. That attitude is ridiculous, and an argument that BBT has never been seen in its full glory because it practitioners are constrained in some way is silly as well. It is fairly easy to die, and to kill. Happens all the time. Read the obituaries. But to control an altercation, or an opponent, or YOURSELF, is much more difficult.

Control is the difference between gansekinage (sp?) being a throw that stuns and a throw that breaks several different bones. If you can throw with great force, there should be no reason, (outside of a total LACK of control) that you cannot throw gently, and vice versa. If I were to spar with a MMA fighter, there are actually very few techniques that I could not use because of their incredible innate destructive power. Just because I train with the idea that there aren't rules on the street does not mean that I am incapable of toning it down, using techniques with a level of force that will not kill or maim, and staying away from eye gouges and such. They may be quick dirty and easy, which is great in a REAL life-or-death clinch, but they are not the entirety of my repertoire, and really not even a fraction of it. I feel that I could spar many times without ever feeling that I lost because I couldn't just kill my sparring partner, or go for that eye-gouge. If your MA is that dependent on lethal force, you had better have a great deal of self control, or face the increased possibility that some silly shouting match will land you in jail because you only had "killer" moves to use when the other guy pushed you.

In a previous post, I alluded to the weakness of grappling styles such as BJJ in an altercation with multiple attackers. I was less educated about BJJ then, and I perhaps judged a whole MA based on a few of its strengths, which is not really true, and so I would like to repent for those assumptions now that I have seen some more of the stand up fighting that BJJ incorporates.

I also made an off-the-cuff comment about rules in MMA not allowing stomps to prone opponents and such, and would, in light of some recent discussions with my teacher and others, like to retract that comment in favor of what I have said in my first paragraph today. I no longer feel that a BBT practitioner would be at a disadvantage because of a very few 'banned' strikes or techniques. I continue to believe that the flexible mindset that I have from training in BBT ("No Rules") does make BBT a better MA for myself, and that MMA fighting in a ring with rules can be effective in other situations. In the end, it is which style is best for the individual person. However, I reserve the right to think that Soke would fight circles around Liddel or Bas Rutten.

[shugenja_09]

In regards to the issue of lethality, and how BBT uses "techniques that can't be practiced in the ring", I would say that CONTROL is the prime goal, not simply the death or defeat of your opponent. Life, and combat, is not simply about two physical objects battering each other until one fails to exist. Yes, BBT contains techniques that can be used with lethal or crippling force. Most MA's do. I have not been taught to use these techniques to the point where I could never spar or fight because I only know how to kill or maim. That attitude is ridiculous, and an argument that BBT has never been seen in its full glory because it practitioners are constrained in some way is silly as well. It is fairly easy to die, and to kill. Happens all the time. Read the obituaries. But to control an altercation, or an opponent, or YOURSELF, is much more difficult.

Control is the difference between gansekinage (sp?) being a throw that stuns and a throw that breaks several different bones. If you can throw with great force, there should be no reason, (outside of a total LACK of control) that you cannot throw gently, and vice versa. If I were to spar with a MMA fighter, there are actually very few techniques that I could not use because of their incredible innate destructive power. Just because I train with the idea that there aren't rules on the street does not mean that I am incapable of toning it down, using techniques with a level of force that will not kill or maim, and staying away from eye gouges and such. They may be quick dirty and easy, which is great in a REAL life-or-death clinch, but they are not the entirety of my repertoire, and really not even a fraction of it. I feel that I could spar many times without ever feeling that I lost because I couldn't just kill my sparring partner, or go for that eye-gouge. If your MA is that dependent on lethal force, you had better have a great deal of self control, or face the increased possibility that some silly shouting match will land you in jail because you only had "killer" moves to use when the other guy pushed you.

In a previous post, I alluded to the weakness of grappling styles such as BJJ in an altercation with multiple attackers. I was less educated about BJJ then, and I perhaps judged a whole MA based on a few of its strengths, which is not really true, and so I would like to repent for those assumptions now that I have seen some more of the stand up fighting that BJJ incorporates.

I also made an off-the-cuff comment about rules in MMA not allowing stomps to prone opponents and such, and would, in light of some recent discussions with my teacher and others, like to retract that comment in favor of what I have said in my first paragraph today. I no longer feel that a BBT practitioner would be at a disadvantage because of a very few 'banned' strikes or techniques. I continue to believe that the flexible mindset that I have from training in BBT ("No Rules") does make BBT a better MA for myself, and that MMA fighting in a ring with rules can be effective in other situations. In the end, it is which style is best for the individual person. However, I reserve the right to think that Soke would fight circles around Liddel or Bas Rutten.

Well said. Agree 100%. Control is very imoprtant skill that few develop to a great degree.

Keep Going

[FUGA DOJO]

Comparing a real fight and MMA are 2 totally different things. First of all MMA practioners know in advance sometimes as far as 5 months who they are preparing to fight. In that training period they analyze hours of film of their opponent to understand their strengths, weaknesses and tendecies. In a real fight you dont know your opponent much less the time and place it is going to happen. I think people are overlooking these very important elements. Even in the early UFC contestants had to send in their videos to the GRACIES in order to be accepted to the fight in the octagon. Once again the gracies were allowed to prepare or see what fighters they were facing. Real fights happen when least expected without planning preparation or even warm up. No trainers no coaches in the corner just 2 individuals who decide talking no longer works. Speaking from experience when a real fight happens you will probably get hit if you are not the aggressor hopefully you can minimize the damage you receive and maximize the damage you put out. Taisabaki does work when shit goes downhill but dont think for a second if you have been training with a weak training partner who falls down before you even start the technique or taps before the pain even starts that you will be ready. I think everyone should go grapple a few times to be forced to think under pressure...then you will see how well you know those wrist locks or arm bars. When I was a rookie patrol officer it took me a few "fights" to learn how to apply these techniques with the proper force during stressful situations that are hard to duplicate in the dojo. The biggest thing anyone can do is when they see poor training such as lazy punches overly compliant ukes is stop both people and stress the fact that you need to be apply to the technique...know the technique by practicing it thousands of time...DO YOU KNOW OMOTE GYAKU...from every possible angle position...sitting kneeling,,standing..falling..

Greg Weathers
Fuga Dojo Cho

[MakotoDojo]

Comparing a real fight and MMA are 2 totally different things. First of all MMA practioners know in advance sometimes as far as 5 months who they are preparing to fight. In that training period they analyze hours of film of their opponent to understand their strengths, weaknesses and tendecies. In a real fight you dont know your opponent much less the time and place it is going to happen. I think people are overlooking these very important elements. Even in the early UFC contestants had to send in their videos to the GRACIES in order to be accepted to the fight in the octagon. Once again the gracies were allowed to prepare or see what fighters they were facing. Real fights happen when least expected without planning preparation or even warm up. No trainers no coaches in the corner just 2 individuals who decide talking no longer works. Speaking from experience when a real fight happens you will probably get hit if you are not the aggressor hopefully you can minimize the damage you receive and maximize the damage you put out. Taisabaki does work when shit goes downhill but dont think for a second if you have been training with a weak training partner who falls down before you even start the technique or taps before the pain even starts that you will be ready. I think everyone should go grapple a few times to be forced to think under pressure...then you will see how well you know those wrist locks or arm bars. When I was a rookie patrol officer it took me a few "fights" to learn how to apply these techniques with the proper force during stressful situations that are hard to duplicate in the dojo. The biggest thing anyone can do is when they see poor training such as lazy punches overly compliant ukes is stop both people and stress the fact that you need to be apply to the technique...know the technique by practicing it thousands of time...DO YOU KNOW OMOTE GYAKU...from every possible angle position...sitting kneeling,,standing..falling..

Greg Weathers
Fuga Dojo Cho

Good post Sempai. (As usual..)

It is very obvious when people post if they have actual experience or not. People should ask John Lindsey how often he seen BJJ type fighting over in Iraq...

Sports people "Martial athelets" are damn tough no doubt. But the real thing and the ring... VERY different...

Reminds me of a Silat person I knew, someone asked him why they couldn't use silat in their MMA type sparring matches. He went on to explain a few things and then said, you are not understanding, silat is sometime between now and five months from now I just show up in your life...

Anyway...