pinan vs heian... what happened?

[Trevor Johnson]

I think the whole idea of a ryu with a set curriculum (or slowly changing) is modern for many Okinawan karate lineages.

That's been my impression as well, from everything I've learned. Kata didn't get really set in stone until very recently. And even among modern schools, kata are more variable in some than others. Eizo Shimabukuro, for example, apparently is very strict on kata being performed exactly as they were taught.

[bartfast]

Many of the old teachers had more than one teacher. So from his second teacher the student learned different versions of the same kata and new kata that the first teacher didn't teach.

It is certainly true that they had more than one teacher... but let me ask you this... is it true that they learned the same kata multiple times? It seems to me, that when I think about it, you usually read something like: "johnny karate learned pinan from Albert kenpo, and learned sanchin from Sammy sumo..." etc.
If we remember that it was most common that a master would only know two or three kata in most cases, it seems odd that you would encounter masters in different areas that practiced the same kata...

Also, what effect do you guys think the introduction of the pinan into the school systems play on its development and propagation... It is safe to assume, probably, that most Okinawan styles have the pinan in them if for no other reason because a lot of practitioners of the time learned them in school as well as from private teachers... I would imagine this would have helped to solidify the pinan and keep them fairly standardized. And I would say...the pinan are *mostly* the same in most styles..definitely if you are a practitioner of an Okinawan style you will recognize the pinan of another style (certain variations of course..). However, I feel the Heian are just drastically removed from the Pinan...

Are we to think this is because someone taught them to Funakoshi that way? Or that Funakoshi himself changed them? When did he do so? Did he ever teach them with cat stances, or always back stance (for example)?

Is anyone aware of an Okinawan style that has the Pinan as performed in Shotokan?

[Trevor Johnson]

Are we to think this is because someone taught them to Funakoshi that way? Or that Funakoshi himself changed them? When did he do so? Did he ever teach them with cat stances, or always back stance (for example)?

Is anyone aware of an Okinawan style that has the Pinan as performed in Shotokan?

Cat stance, or a shorter version of a back stance is what I've seen. I think most of the real lengthening of the stances was for the university clubs, who wanted more athleticism.

[Geoff]

I believe that Funakoshi and his followers changed their karate in Japan in the 1930s through the early 1950s. However, I am not saying that the changes were made thoughtlessly. In fact, Funakoshi Gigo and Egami were atempting to do something different with their karate than had been done on Okinawa. Later Shotokan masters like Nakayama and Kanzawa continued this trend. Shotokan people recognize that there are now clear differences between the Nakayam lineage (now supported by the re-united JKA), the Kanazawa lineage and there is even more diversification among those small outlying groups that never joined the JKA in the first place (Yes, there is non-JKA Shotokan!).

As far as Shotokan-type karate on Okinawa I would point to Graham Noble's interview with karate senior Dan Smith in Classical Fighting Arts issue #5 in which Smith states, "I went in to watch the [Seibukan - Shorin ryu] training and sure enough it was very close to the Shotokan training I was used to. It appeared to be more the Shotokan of Oshima Sensei that I had seen when attending the Shotokan tournaments in the mid 1960s in the USA." He went on to say, "As I said, the reason I chose the Seibukan Dojo to train in was that it was the closest karate I could find to Shotokan."

I have also heard that there is a karate style on the southern part of Kyushu (the closest part of "mainland" Japan to Okinawa) that is carried on by the descendants of Funakoshi's teacher Azato, which practices Shotokan-like karate with the addition of close-in fighting drills, different bunkai and Azato-lineage family kata. I wish I knew more about it!

[Nyuck3X]

Are we to think this is because someone taught them to Funakoshi that way? Or that Funakoshi himself changed them? When did he do so? Did he ever teach them with cat stances, or always back stance (for example)?

If you look at Itosu's other students, Mabuni, Chibana and Kyan for example,
there is a close similarity to their Pinan. I think It would be reasonable to
think that Funakoshi made the changes. You can also see it from the early
publications of Funakoshi to the later ones.

[wsteigner]

Hi Ray, Don`t think Kyan was a student of Itosu or that he taught the Pinan
kata.He had 4 famous students, Shimabuku Tatsuo Isshinryu, Shimabuku Zenryo, Sukunaihayashi Seibukan, Nagamine Shoshin Matsubayashi-ryu, and Nakazato Joen Shorin-ji, of these 4 only Nagamine Shoshin
had Pinan Kata in his Dojo which most likely came from one of his other teachers. Shimabuku Zenryo had his good friend Nakama Chozo teach the
Pinan Kata to his son Shimabuku Zenpo and they were add to his Seibukan Dojo in the 60`s maybe. Shimabuku Eizo younger brother to Shimabuku Tatsuo also does the Pinan Kata which he may or maynot have gotten from Chibana Choshin.
thank you
bill steigner
Jinbukai

[Nyuck3X]

Thanks Bill.
You are correct, Kyan worked directly with Matsumura.
I don't know where my head was at. The Nakama/Shimabukuro
connection is the same as I know it. From what I undrstand, he
also learned Passai Gwa from Nakama.

Peace.

[Nyuck3X]

Just an FYI

I just looked at Nagamine's book" Tales of the Okinawan Masters"
and he states that Kyan did indeed study with Itosu.
First I heard of this. Go figure.

[bartfast]

I just finished reading Funakoshi's autobiography, and he states that he spent a lot of time making Karate simpler and altering the Kata to make them easier to learn. I suppose that has quite a bit to do with it. Seems the kata became a little more aesthetic and a little less martial... It was interesting to me that he continually called Karate a sport. He definitely began the move from martial art to sport Karate. Where as most Okinawans hold that "no makiwara- no Karate" and "no kumite- no karate" he held.... "eh whatever... if you aren't trying to kill people with it...and you just want to work out, you never have to hit anyone or anything..."

very interesting. He truly was an innovator. many decades before his time.
And gives a little more insight into why the stylistic change at his hands...

[john_lord_b3]

That's been my impression as well, from everything I've learned. Kata didn't get really set in stone until very recently. And even among modern schools, kata are more variable in some than others..

Here you can find the Wado-ryu version of Pinan.

http://www.art-of-budo.com/karate/EN...dia_videos.htm

Notice any resemblance to Shorin-ryu and Shotokan?

[Wado-AJ]

haha,

i really need to capture new footage... its to soft.
except pinan sandan, thats quite new.