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Thread: pinan vs heian... what happened?

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    Default pinan vs heian... what happened?

    Having studied both Japanese, and Okinawan versions of the pinan/heians, I am fascinated by the differences between them. There of course certain schools where the only difference is in the naming and order of shodan/nidan, but other more interesting differences are what I'm talking about here...for instance:
    In JKA Shotokan, you begin with one fist over the other at your hips. In Okinawan versions you start with both arms swung to the side. In Shotokan, you then assume a back stance in which you do not move except to shift 180 degrees to mirror the opening moves. In Okinawan versions you assume the cat stance and shift to a tall horse stance when executing the strikes, with a stepping motion before switching to the other side. In shotokan, the kick is a side kick from the same stance, whereas in Okinawan versions you assume a cat stance at 90degrees with a front kick. the list goes on, but those are some very prominant ones. Since it is widely accepted that these kata were created by itosu in 1904, and that he directly taught the people that perform it both ways; which was the original? Why the difference? how did such differences happen within the first 20 years or so of modern karate? Any thoughts??
    D. Fiorello

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartfast
    Having studied both Japanese, and Okinawan versions of the pinan/heians, I am fascinated by the differences between them. There of course certain schools where the only difference is in the naming and order of shodan/nidan, but other more interesting differences are what I'm talking about here...for instance:
    In JKA Shotokan, you begin with one fist over the other at your hips. In Okinawan versions you start with both arms swung to the side. In Shotokan, you then assume a back stance in which you do not move except to shift 180 degrees to mirror the opening moves. In Okinawan versions you assume the cat stance and shift to a tall horse stance when executing the strikes, with a stepping motion before switching to the other side. In shotokan, the kick is a side kick from the same stance, whereas in Okinawan versions you assume a cat stance at 90degrees with a front kick. the list goes on, but those are some very prominant ones. Since it is widely accepted that these kata were created by itosu in 1904, and that he directly taught the people that perform it both ways; which was the original? Why the difference? how did such differences happen within the first 20 years or so of modern karate? Any thoughts??

    And your name is ?...............
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    Thanks for complying with E-Budo rules. What Okinawan karate did you learn the pinan from ?
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    currently I am (off and on-when work permits) studying Okinawa Kenpo. But the case stands for many many okinawan schools. A more popular one would be Shito-ryu. here are two youtube links. the first is shito-ryu, the second shotokan. The differences are clear immediately.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnQ7uc_H7tc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36pI7IRLqFs
    D. Fiorello

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    Here's the Matsubayashi Ryu version of Pinan Shodan courtesy of Jim Sindth, it has a slight difference between the above links.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNzcUfnGJyI


    I am not familiar with Okinawan Kempo kata , thus it would be hard hard for me to make the comparison.
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    Also, Kyokushin's Pinan Sono Ni

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrhFuHpj0MA
    Roy Hubbard

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    Well...Just to stay on track...my question isn't "are there differences..." but "Why are there differences?" It just seems odd that such stark differences could come about so rapidly. The Kata was "invented" in 1904(ish) and by 1920(ish) Funakoshi was in Japan with a back stance, while others were on Okinawa with the cat stance. Did Funakoshi learn it with a back stance? did he later change it from cat to back? As it is, in "Karate-jutsu", Funakoshi's original book, the pictures of him look like a cross between the two stances. like a cat stance with a flat front foot. not the long angular stance typically seen in Shotokan. Does anyone have insight into why these changes came about? or what Itosu's pinan looked like as he taught them? the sensei that brought about these changes all reportedly studied directly under Itosu, so why are their kata different?
    D. Fiorello

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartfast

    1) but "Why are there differences?"

    2) The Kata was
    "invented" in 1904(ish) and by 1920(ish) Funakoshi was in Japan with a back stance, while others were on Okinawa with the cat stance.

    3) Did Funakoshi learn it with a back stance? did he later change it from cat to back?
    1) The students that separated from Itosu, could made the slight changes that fits their own personal interpretation of the pinan Kata. Kyan Chotuko was known to do this. Other reasoning could also be politicaly induced.

    2) The pinan kata first came to light in 1907-1908. Originally done with the cat stance as opposed to backstance, It was changed with the same reasoning mentioned above.

    3) As Funakoshi was a native Okinawan and trained under an Okinawan master, I believed that he primarily learned it as Neko Ashi Dachi then later change it to Kokutsu Dachi.

    Hope this helps !
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    I agree with what you are saying...but I don't think I'm satisfied. In a shotokan school, a great deal of time is spent on learning the movements exactly. even black belts will constantly be corrected with slight finger alignments or toe positioning. It stands to reason that Funakoshi must have undergone similar training. Especially in the early days, Karate was about depth rather than breadth of knowledge. It wasn't uncommon for someone to be a Master and only know 1-3 Kata. but they KNEW those kata. Funakoshi must have mastered the Pinan kata. Which means he must have spent a lot of time and energy learning them exactly. why then would he arbitrarily change what he spent so much time perfecting? And if that is the case, then why hasn't the personalization of kata carried on? I feel if most karateka went to a dojo and the sensei taught you his personal version of a kata, that sensei would be a bit suspect...
    D. Fiorello

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartfast
    Funakoshi must have mastered the Pinan kata. Which means he must have spent a lot of time and energy learning them exactly. why then would he arbitrarily change what he spent so much time perfecting?
    Only he (Funakoshi) can answer this question. For years I wanted to know why Funakoshi, if he wanted to preserved the Pinan Kata as taught to him, then why would he change the name to Heinan ?

    I was told once that somehwere down the line, Someone within the JKA made some modification to the pinans. Wether this is true or not, difference is obvious.

    We can have theories after theories and in the end , we would still be farther from finding the truth. Why is this ? Because Funakoshi is lone gone and perhaps whatever the honne and tatemae of his reasonings went with him to his grave.
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartfast
    I agree with what you are saying...but I don't think I'm satisfied. In a shotokan school, a great deal of time is spent on learning the movements exactly. even black belts will constantly be corrected with slight finger alignments or toe positioning. It stands to reason that Funakoshi must have undergone similar training. Especially in the early days, Karate was about depth rather than breadth of knowledge. It wasn't uncommon for someone to be a Master and only know 1-3 Kata. but they KNEW those kata. Funakoshi must have mastered the Pinan kata. Which means he must have spent a lot of time and energy learning them exactly. why then would he arbitrarily change what he spent so much time perfecting? And if that is the case, then why hasn't the personalization of kata carried on? I feel if most karateka went to a dojo and the sensei taught you his personal version of a kata, that sensei would be a bit suspect...
    I'm not sure I buy the concept that fully learning a kata involves everyone looking and performing the same in terms of the minutia you're talking about. From what I understand that type of thing is a later development specific to mainland Japanese karate.

    In any case Japanese kata seem to look and feel very different from their Okinawan predecessors, not a bad thing neccessarily.

    I also have been led to believe that the major changes were made by later JKA folks. If you look at Funakoshi's book To-Te Jitsu even his back stance is really just a variation on a cat stance, none of the deep stances you see in today's Shotokan. However, I've also heard alot of not so nice things about Funakoshi's karate itself from various sources.

    In the end who knows for sure, I don't think anyone has the real skinny, just some guesswork.

    Anyway, i would argue that everyone teaches their own personal version of kata, whether they intend to or not.

    There is a huge difference between teaching the proper mechanics and principles and just saying "it's wrong if it doesn't look like mine"...to me the latter is way more suspect, and indicates someone who knows about what kata is supposed to look like, and maybe not so much what it is meant to accomplish.
    Last edited by ZachZinn; 28th June 2007 at 00:37.
    Zachariah Zinn

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    I'd agree with that completely. which is probably what is at the root of the question for me. Can the Kata accomplish the same thing if the basic movements are altered in such ways? We are all taught over and over again that each and every movement of a kata is equally important and holds layers of meanings. Some argue that punches are only punches when you are a beginner, and that as you progress you learn they are really escapes from wrist grabs or any of a million other bunkai that we have all read in the past. there are certain movements in kata that seem to be nothing more than pretty poses, but we are always told they hold meaning. So what of the (sometimes referred to as cup and saucer) fist over fist at the hip in the beginning of heian nidan? doesnt that drastically change the opening scenario? how can you be accomplishing what the inventor of the kata had hidden in his opening movements? Or the difference between a side kick and turning to perform a front kick. If we accept this kind of reasoning, we have to allow that Funakoshi didn't have the grasp on Karate he is credited with (which judging by the photos in karate-jutsu, I am willing to concede). Which really means that actual bunkai is probably impossible, as in "what did Itosu intend to say with the kata? what were the movements for?" we will never know because it seems someone learned what it looked like, not what it did, then spread it around the world dwarfing that from which it was derived...
    D. Fiorello

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    Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu uses a high back stance instead of nekoashi.
    It's so narrow, that it can be mistaken for cat stance by those who use
    a really deep stance.

    Today's JKA karate is way different than the stuff Funakoshi taught
    early on. Even within the Shoto circles, I find variation. I have two
    Shoto BB training with me and they both do things different. One is
    Nishiyama and the other is Kanazawa.

    JKA stuff had to be consistant accross the board because you had
    people at different Universities. In order to compete, they had to have a
    level playing field. In Okinawa, they didn't have that issue.

    I can not tell you who and why the kata was changed, but in the
    Okinawan tradition, at a certian point, kata was tailored to the practitioner.
    When I teach ohyo waza, I cannot expect a small person to do the same
    moves a large person can do so I teach them different ohyo. The kata
    stays the same, but the ohyo has to fit the individual.

    The idea of preserving the kata is a relatively new thing. Today
    we are trying to keep things from changing for historic reasons.
    Again, in old Okinawa, the purpose (in my case of Shorin) was to protect
    the King. Traditon was not a concern. Today people do karate
    for many reasons. One of which is to preserve an art form.

    Also, kata can change by accident. I train in Chibana-ha Shorin but, I
    also have trained with Matsubayashi Sensei. On a recent visit by my
    Chibana-ha sensei, he noticed a few changes I picked up from the other
    teacher. I never ment to incorporate it, it just happened.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Peace
    Ray Baldonade
    Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu

    "Love many, trust few and do wrong to none". Chan Yau-man

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    I personally feel that Funakoshi Gichin and his origianal senior students (Gigo and Egami) were experimenting with rationalizing or economizing what they felt were the essential characterisitcs or truths of their karate. The changes from Pinan to Heian reflect their pov.

    A better illustration of the Funakoshi model would be the essentially parallel Shotokan system that Funakoshi and some pre-JKA seniors taught and practiced that emphasized the Taikyoku kata 1-3, Ten no Kata and Gohon/Sanbon/Ippon kumite. Essentialy, these masters were trying to develop a complete, exportable and rational karate system that could be easily taught and modified to fit local preferences while remaining true to essential karate principles (as they saw them). Funakoshi says as much in Karate-do Kyohan. I have been working on an article expanding this idea for some time now. Perhaps one day I'll even finish it!

    While Funakoshi's karate gets a lot of flack in some circles for simplification, I think a better explanation is that he employed his experience as an educator and scholar and karateka to try to revolutionize and globalize karate-do.

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    I think it was the influence of the Samurai arts. The samurai are "one cut, one kill" sounds very similar to the "one punch one kill" of Shotokan. The samurai fight from longer range from opponents due to mai. Okinawan arts deal with the opponents in a grappling trapping range after closing the gap, using combinations to achieve this objective. The back stance also looks very similar to a posture of a Samurai. The changes look like cultural influences to me.
    Chris McLean
    Martial Arts student

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