Kata Bunkai

[trevorg]

Trevor, I guess my only comment is that, let be honest, no matter how "traditional" any style is, none of us doing the kata as they were originally taught. Or at very least, we cannot be sure that our "version" of the kata is the original version. Add to this, that there are many references to the "old masters" modifying kata to fit a student, leads me to believe that there may not be an correct version.

I would rather slightly modify the kata to make the bunkai more realistic and effective than to continue to perform a contrived bunkai.

Rick - An interesting point. Certainly I have no idea if the kata and their application as taught to me were taught the same way to my sensei and I suppose if I were truthful with myself I could well imagine what I was taught may have changed over the years although I like to think not. The memory certainly plays tricks, but I take the view that if you practice the drill over and over for many years then it is unlikely it would change much.

And I agree, I doubt there is a correct version, but we can only go on what we were taught until someone explains better but then we're into a whole new ball game of mine is bigger than yours.

Osu
Trevor

[Sheree Adams]

Hi there,

I see this topic has been dormant for the past month but I thought I'd put my 2 cents worth in.

First the answer to the original questions posed:

-Does your style/school teach/require bunkai? A: Yes.
- If so, is there a one to one relationship between kata movement and bunkai or a one to many relationship? A: one to one relationship for bunkai for the most part.
- How much variation do you allow from the kata movement? A: None
- Are students/instructors allowed to devlop alternate bunkai? A: No, not bunkai.

Quoting Trevorg:
"Sadly, speaking as a dinosaur, I have to say that once kata is altered to incorporate personal preferences or different teaching influences,then it is no longer the same kata vis-a-vis that which was originally taught."

Seems I, also, am a dinosaur. However, I am a student of a dinosaur so this makes perfect sense. The bunkai is not varied for the personal preferences of the practitioner for some of the very same reasons mentioned by Trevorg. It most always distorts the form of the kata if one does not adhere to strict, for lack of a better description, bunkai. Practitioners within my own style who see the bunkai as too "basic" and, therefore, want to fancy it up, have a very different looking, sometimes "bastardized", kata.

Two previous comments:
"Ive been told by some people that they consider bunkai to be a drill that keeps the form of the kata the same. It leads to some things I dont necessarily agree in terms of applicability, such as blocking a person multiple times and then turning your back on him, unrealistic distancing of techniques, etc, but as long as it is made clear that this has nothing to do with any kind of martial application, ok."

OK, so why do the form of a kata at all, if it "leads" to unrealistic distancing and has nothing to do with martial application? I have found that bunkai is very applicable but when students first begin to do bunkai they often have trouble with the distancing on techniques. The problem is not usually because of the kata but, rather, the inexperience of the practioner.

and:
"the premade bunkai-oyo drills that i've learned have a one to one relationship with the kata, however they are (for the most part) very simplistic (not that that's bad necessarily) when compared to the more free form applications."


Another common thread that always seems to come up, is that, somehow, simplistic if inferior to complex. I know that's not what was said, but it is a common thought by some and has a lot to do with why many people want complex bunkai. I think I could poll the group, especially those with indepth experience, and the results would be that simplisitic is superior and complex is unrealistic. Of course, simplisitc techniques are, if seeking perfection of the technique, very complex in and of themselves.

I have seen people teach very complex "bunkai" (I like to refer to that as oyo) and it is always if very confusing and difficult for people to do. I have to ask myself, if this is a bona fide self defence technique, why is it so darned hard to get even the most competent in the group to do the technique with any level of expertise? Of course, it makes for good seminar material, keeps people coming back, and deals with the lack of concentration that most people have to dedicate themselves to something for a long period of time. But, it doesn't seem to be a very valuable tool that when one may need to call upon in times of great stress, during a life threatening situation, with the potential for devasting outcomes.

So, the other reasons for teaching bunkai, "simplified" and without variation and for teaching more "complex" oyo.

One reason (and only one) for teaching bunkai, "simplified" is as follows. We have to think back to when our art was developed and what was happening to those that were teaching and learning martial arts. Some teachers, mine included, still believe that these techniques we are learning should not be taken lightly. He has said to me on more than one occassion that there are only 3 types of people who come to your dojo. Someone who wants to challenge you, someone who wants to steal your techniques, and someone who wants to become your student. And, sometimes, it's hard to tell what category a person falls into. Especially those in the guise of a student. So, surely, we must keep that in mind when disclosing information and, therefore, not everything is devulged at the first meeting, sometimes for years, and sometimes ever, even to the student. Better to let that person go away thinking they've seen it all, then let that knowledge fall into the hands of those not deserving or will bring the art into disrepute. Some may say this is archaic and not necessary in the modern world but that is the history and tradition of our art.

One reason for teaching oyo after coming to know your student is as follows. As an teacher, finding the forte of the student is most important. What are the best techniques for this individual, how can I take their innate nature and abilities and enhance them? If everything was ever just done way then, as a teacher, we would be remiss in giving that person the skills that would best ensure their survival. Finding someone's forte may not become apparent until the more complex techinques and movements are introduced to them.

So, there, just a few comments, it's just my 2 cents worth, and it was more fun to write this then what I should have been doing. I've procrastinated and now must get back to what I should have been doing. Hope y'all have a good weekend.

Take care,
Sheree

[ZachZinn]

and:
"the premade bunkai-oyo drills that i've learned have a one to one relationship with the kata, however they are (for the most part) very simplistic (not that that's bad necessarily) when compared to the more free form applications."


Another common thread that always seems to come up, is that, somehow, simplistic if inferior to complex. I know that's not what was said, but it is a common thought by some and has a lot to do with why many people want complex bunkai. I think I could poll the group, especially those with indepth experience, and the results would be that simplisitic is superior and complex is unrealistic. Of course, simplisitc techniques are, if seeking perfection of the technique, very complex in and of themselves.

I think was wasn't clear enough about what I was meant by 'simplistic'...I agree simple usually works better than complex.

Here's what it comes down to for me...most of the "formal bunkai" i've seen and been taught are very ritualized 2 man drills, they serve a definite function and have alot to teach, but they seem very broken down into conjunctions of block, then punch etc.

As you get progessively higher they tend to be a bit more "flowing", but you would still be crazy to assume a real fight will go like that, they are formal drills to teach specific things.

Here's an example from the 'flavor' of Goju I train in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz0ufCmYufw

It's a nice drill, but to me as a relatively new shodan, I would find it...limiting if this was presented to me as the be all end all of saifa kata bunkai.

[trevorg]

I think was wasn't clear enough about what I was meant by 'simplistic'...I agree simple usually works better than complex.

Here's what it comes down to for me...most of the "formal bunkai" i've seen and been taught are very ritualized 2 man drills, they serve a definite function and have alot to teach, but they seem very broken down into conjunctions of block, then punch etc.

As you get progessively higher they tend to be a bit more "flowing", but you would still be crazy to assume a real fight will go like that, they are formal drills to teach specific things.

Here's an example from the 'flavor' of Goju I train in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz0ufCmYufw

It's a nice drill, but to me as a relatively new shodan, I would find it...limiting if this was presented to me as the be all end all of saifa kata bunkai.

Zach

If I might say, with respect, and within my limited experience, the issue of practising bunkai is the same as practising any basics. A student needs to practice and practice and practice ad infinitum so that it becomes second nature. You will never find a basic technique, whether in bunkai or elsewhere, that will meet all the possible variations of an attack,which means that you have to take into account the size and weight of the attacker,the environment, your own condition, your assessment of his experience weighed against yours, distance and timing (and your experience of that and also assessing again whether your opponents assessment of your distance and timing is better or worse than yours and so on and so on).

As time passes so all practice and drills intesify and escalate and in that way you acquire more knowledge. However, as a shodan you are at the very beginning of learning and believe me it never stops.

The drill you referred to on youtube, or any kata bunkai for that matter,should never be regarded as the be all and end all because there should be so much you should be taking from it every time you practice it. Each time it should be different as your learning curve increases, so you shouldnt regard the ritual of a particular set of moves as being the panacea for dealing with a live fight. It is just a small component of the whole, which unfortunately most of us never find.

Osu
Trevor

[ZachZinn]

Zach

If I might say, with respect, and within my limited experience, the issue of practising bunkai is the same as practising any basics. A student needs to practice and practice and practice ad infinitum so that it becomes second nature. You will never find a basic technique, whether in bunkai or elsewhere, that will meet all the possible variations of an attack,which means that you have to take into account the size and weight of the attacker,.................
Osu
Trevor

I'm in total agreement with the spirit of what you say above, my post was more regarding viewing kata as "this move equals this" in a rigid fashion.

I'm responding to the idea that a bunkai drill such as the one above should be regarded as The Bunkai Oyo for the kata, in this case Saifa. I have also seen plenty of applications taught for Saifa that don't fit this mold, but seem to work just fine.

What part of the things i've said do you disagree with?

There's been a couple times now where you've thrown the "you're a shodan" thing out at me, I certainly admit to being green, but it doesn't lessen the relevance of my opinion on this subject. Would you respond to me the same if I simply never mentioned my rank?

I only mentioned my rank in previous posts out of an interest in being open about skill levels for the purpose of the discussion, however I don't think it should disqualify me from it.

If i'm misreading you I apologize.

[Nyuck3X]

IMO, the Saifa video was yakusoku kumite or promise sparring.
It's a drill to develop timing, speed distance and form.

Ohyo waza can be used on a noncompliant uke and should only
require one or two moves to complete. Anything longer than that
and you are doing choreography.

[trevorg]

I'm in total agreement with the spirit of what you say above, my post was more regarding viewing kata as "this move equals this" in a rigid fashion.

I'm responding to the idea that a bunkai drill such as the one above should be regarded as The Bunkai Oyo for the kata, in this case Saifa. I have also seen plenty of applications taught for Saifa that don't fit this mold, but seem to work just fine.

What part of the things i've said do you disagree with?

There's been a couple times now where you've thrown the "you're a shodan" thing out at me, I certainly admit to being green, but it doesn't lessen the relevance of my opinion on this subject. Would you respond to me the same if I simply never mentioned my rank?

I only mentioned my rank in previous posts out of an interest in being open about skill levels for the purpose of the discussion, however I don't think it should disqualify me from it.

If i'm misreading you I apologize.

Zach

I do apologise if my wording seems critical of you . It isnt meant to be. Unfortunately at my age I tend to forget what I might have said earlier or not bothered to check earlier posts.

Of course rank doesnt disqualify anyone from opinion, but if I were to be totally abstract I would say that any rank in any art/sport or workplace that lacks the experience of someone who owns lots of it will always find themselves in a position of seeking an answer, simply because they dont have the experience or knowledge to offer a valid solution - and thats not meant in a demeaning or critical way.

This doesnt mean to say it disqualifies anyone from discussion, it is just a matter of fact that the more one is down the scale (of anything) then their knowledge by definition has to be not as much as someone who has more.
However, on a personal note, I never discuss rank because it creates perception issues. I am always learning but I hope that what I have learned I might be able to share from time to time and that which I dont know I ask and listen. And that is definitely not meant to sound condescending.

So to try and answer your question; the point I am suggesting is that as ANY application is passed down to us by our Sensei in a prescribed set of moves there will always be a degree of rigidity. We dont have the option to change things at will unless we are freestyling. For example, in Wing Chun a main drill is Chi Sau (sticking hands).To gauge a students ability in Wing Chun is not done by watching their forms but by engaging in Chi Sau with them. It is a very free expression.

Chi Sau develops not only hand techniques but also contact sensitivity, reflexes, positioning, knowledge of energy use as well as trapping skills. All of these elements are as one when you are fighting and it is the combination of these elements that determines the ability of a person when they are free fighting.

However IMO the applications we are shown are by definition fixed to the kata and all I am saying is that I believe these should be practised and practised until the point is reached where all the applications of all the kata are absorbed into one's consciousness.
Sorry about all that waffle.

Osu
Trevor

[ZachZinn]

However IMO the applications we are shown are by definition fixed to the kata and all I am saying is that I believe these should be practised and practised until the point is reached where all the applications of all the kata are absorbed into one's consciousness.
Sorry about all that waffle.

Ok so do you think there is only one interpretation per technique? Do you think time is better served practicing bunkai/oyo with an uke or just by practicing kata?

Obviousy chudan uke can never be a spinning roundhouse kick...but there are alot of different uses for chudan uke (as an example) other than the "classic" presentation.

I've seen some schools where there is little to no practice of application with a partner, it's all just sort of thrown out as theory, and we're told that by constant repetition of the solo kata we somehow "learn" the techniques...I'm not sure I buy this argument.

Thanks for clarifying the shodan thing, I get it now. YOU HATE ME.

Just joking, I appreciate the candor and your comments made sense.

Anyway, to address Ray's comments on the clip I linked to, this is sort of "beginner to intermediate" level bunkai practice where i'm coming from, whereas what I think of as "applications" tend to be much shorter as you said, and far less choreographed. They're both "bunkai" in some way though, right?

[trevorg]

Ok so do you think there is only one interpretation per technique? Do you think time is better served practicing bunkai/oyo with an uke or just by practicing kata?

Obviousy chudan uke can never be a spinning roundhouse kick...but there are alot of different uses for chudan uke (as an example) other than the "classic" presentation.

I've seen some schools where there is little to no practice of application with a partner, it's all just sort of thrown out as theory, and we're told that by constant repetition of the solo kata we somehow "learn" the techniques...I'm not sure I buy this argument.

Thanks for clarifying the shodan thing, I get it now. YOU HATE ME.

Just joking, I appreciate the candor and your comments made sense.

Anyway, to address Ray's comments on the clip I linked to, this is sort of "beginner to intermediate" level bunkai practice where i'm coming from, whereas what I think of as "applications" tend to be much shorter as you said, and far less choreographed. They're both "bunkai" in some way though, right?

Yeah, Zach, I REALLY hate you and all those with a genuine sense of quest because you KEEP ASKING. I really love those tossers, though, who dont know what they are talking about, or are talking through their rear view mirrors, then I can play games for as long as I want.

No, I dont think there is one interpretation per technique because as I have said in a real situation there are two many assessments to make and consider, but in terms of practice I would say that is correct to practice alone or with uke because both activities will give you a different perspective. If you repetitively practice a kata your own mind and body reactions (as one grows in experience) will find something different in each move . The purpose, as I understand it, is to imagine the different attacks coming in and deal with them in accordance with the blocks of the kata by using shingan (mind's eye).

By using uke there is the opportunity to feel it 'hands on', but of course it is a prescribed set of moves with a prescribed set of answers.

I'm not sure how to answer you, Zach, because I believe a kata should never be changed (in as far as that is possible) and therefore there must be an unalterable set of moves. It is not possible IMO to consider a variety of applications to be taken from one kata. For example, if uke delivers mae geri and the response (from the kata in question) is gedan barai, then it is gedan barai that you do, not juji gedan.

Perhaps those much more experienced than I can provide a more definitive answer.

Osu
Trevor

[Trevor Johnson]

For example, if uke delivers mae geri and the response (from the kata in question) is gedan barai, then it is gedan barai that you do, not juji gedan.

Perhaps those much more experienced than I can provide a more definitive answer.

Osu
Trevor

I think the question is not so much what you may be doing to your uke, but what your uke may be doing to elicit that response? As in, if there are two different attacks that can be responded to in a very similar way, are those both then considered bunkai within the parameters you describe?

(I've seen people who'd consider them both bunkai, and some who would not. I'm mostly trying to figure out where you're coming from on this. )

[trevorg]

I think the question is not so much what you may be doing to your uke, but what your uke may be doing to elicit that response? As in, if there are two different attacks that can be responded to in a very similar way, are those both then considered bunkai within the parameters you describe?

(I've seen people who'd consider them both bunkai, and some who would not. I'm mostly trying to figure out where you're coming from on this. )

The latter, I guess.

[Nyuck3X]

What we are discussing is Okuden waza. Okuden Waza as described by Lawrence A. Kane and Kris Wilder are the "secets" of kata. Ref: http://books.google.com/books?id=Kwj...L_Xy81GYD5JN3c

Bunkai - To analyze
Ohyo waza - Application techniques

Omote: Obvious - Omote waza, the obvious techniques that keep the shape of the kata.

Ura: Hidden - Ura waza, hidden techniques. Techniques that are not so obvious. Form and embusen can change from the kata.

Peace.

[Trevor Johnson]

What we are discussing is Okuden waza. Okuden Waza as described by Lawrence A. Kane and Kris Wilder are the "secets" of kata. Ref: http://books.google.com/books?id=Kwj...L_Xy81GYD5JN3c

Bunkai - To analyze
Ohyo waza - Application techniques

Omote: Obvious - Omote waza, the obvious techniques that keep the shape of the kata.

Ura: Hidden - Ura waza, hidden techniques. Techniques that are not so obvious. Form and embusen can change from the kata.

Peace.

If we are discussing okuden waza, or ura waza, then form and embusen can change. I think we're currently discussing waza where the embusen and form cannot be changed or the kata's not the same. Slight confusion on my part, perhaps?

[Sheree Adams]

I hate to have reopened the discussion and then not be able to comment but, sadly, they're making me work. I'd like to not fall into the category of being a "tosser", so, just to make a short comment before I get back to work. I agree, 100%, with every thing that Trevor Gilbert has said regarding this thread. In fact, it's really wonderful to hear it said so well.

I was discussing this with a friend and we were talking about how some students "intellectualize" techniques, do it for a short time physically, have trouble doing it well, and therefore, disgard it or suggest it needs a revamp. Finding that something doesn't work the first time out usually requires just more practice and/or understanding rather than changing it to make it to suit the expertise of the practitioner. I think this is what happens a lot of time to "set" bunkai.

Just a quick comment on the link you sent regarding Saifa. I noticed that there is no sequence or rhythm in the bunkai, nor the use of kamae. Are you shown how to use these aspects? Maybe this is what you find missing.

Sorry, love to read the discussions and hope to find time to take part, but got a bit swamped at work.

Thanks for all the interesting comments and questions.

sheree

[ZachZinn]

I hate to have reopened the discussion and then not be able to comment but, sadly, they're making me work. I'd like to not fall into the category of being a "tosser", so, just to make a short comment before I get back to work. I agree, 100%, with every thing that Trevor Gilbert has said regarding this thread. In fact, it's really wonderful to hear it said so well.

I was discussing this with a friend and we were talking about how some students "intellectualize" techniques, do it for a short time physically, have trouble doing it well, and therefore, disgard it or suggest it needs a revamp. Finding that something doesn't work the first time out usually requires just more practice and/or understanding rather than changing it to make it to suit the expertise of the practitioner. I think this is what happens a lot of time to "set" bunkai.

Just a quick comment on the link you sent regarding Saifa. I noticed that there is no sequence or rhythm in the bunkai, nor the use of kamae. Are you shown how to use these aspects? Maybe this is what you find missing.

Hmm yeah, on the clip, no the usual dynamics aren't there, i'm gonna assume that they were "lightly" practicing it just to go through the motions, but I don't know the guys so...probably best to assume it's not being done with 100% gusto in that particular clip.

The unfortunate thing about the longer yakusoku type drills is that you can't get the full effect until your body remembers so well that you can go with lots of speed and power, which requires doing it alot, so i'm assuming these gentlemen were 'rehearsing' more than anythting else.

Ray:
I've really gotten alot out of Kane and Wilder's book, and I should probably disclose that I train under Kris Wilder when possible (I live in another town), so i'm a biased source.

Anyway, all i'm trying to get across is the difference between the "rigid bunkai" and the ura-waza concept, and it seems that's where most of us are differing.

Being at the level I am, I still have very little understanding of the ura-waza I think, but what little I have been exposed to seem very different from what I would call a "rigid bunkai".