Kata Bunkai

[Nyuck3X]

Zach,
You and Trevor (as is all of us) are on a journey of discovery. One may know
method "A", and the other method "B". Some may know both "A and B". We
all come to an understanding at one time or another. I believe there is a time
for "rigid ohyo and a time for ura waza. We all come to it in our own time.

Stepping off of my soap box, please extend my gratitude to Wilder Sensei
for co-writing the book. It has helped me immensely.

Peace.

[trevorg]

I believe the point Sheree made about kamae is all important. There was none in the clip and on that basis I would also agree they are probably going through the motions. And,Sheree,there are no tossers on this thread.

I would agree with Sheree there is a tendency to intellectualise techniques, usually because there is a lack of grasp and a willingness to persevere, and this I am afraid is a very western issue:- "Let's talk it through,find another way, perhaps a better way that works for me" whereas the truth is there for all to find if but they search hard enough for it.

Zach; when you mention "the longer yakusoku type drills is that you can't get the full effect until your body remembers so well that you can go with lots of speed and power" I would suggest that whatever drill you practice,as you would with kata, is that the only way you can remember the sequence is to practice each individual movement until it becomes second nature - then you move on to the next,and so on. And as with all moves you learn the technique first. I prefer to do this slowly so that I may feel it. Then I add tension so that the move is done with slow technique and power, and when (and if ) I have mastered that I do it finally with speed,and then very finally all three together.

But as Ray said in the post above 'we all come to it in our own time'. Couldn't agree more.

Osu
Trevor

[ZachZinn]

Zach,
You and Trevor (as is all of us) are on a journey of discovery. One may know
method "A", and the other method "B". Some may know both "A and B". We
all come to an understanding at one time or another. I believe there is a time
for "rigid ohyo and a time for ura waza. We all come to it in our own time.

Stepping off of my soap box, please extend my gratitude to Wilder Sensei
for co-writing the book. It has helped me immensely.

Peace.

I will mention it I love the book also, his new(ish) book on Sanchin kata is really good as well.

I get what everyone is saying about the over-intellectualizing, but honestly in alot of cases that seems like a training issue more than a conceptual one.

With bunkai-related stuff it seems like there is often a tendency to get too "talky" and not train at a level of intensity appropriate for what we are doing. Like just standing around going "check this out", "try this" and fooling aorund, rather than training a technique with a degree of focus.

Well i'm starting to see that maybe everyone does pretty much agree in this thread, but it's also made me realize the limitations of language (especially in a virtual world) when discussing these things.

[trevorg]

If we are discussing okuden waza, or ura waza, then form and embusen can change. I think we're currently discussing waza where the embusen and form cannot be changed or the kata's not the same. Slight confusion on my part, perhaps?

Trevor

As I understand it we are not discussing okuden waza (the secrets), or ura waza (reverse techniques) but whether one should be rigid or flexible in the applications of a kata. So, if you're confused then so am I, but I dont think we are (that is unless we're having a geriatric moment).

Osu
Trevor

[Trevor Johnson]

Trevor

As I understand it we are not discussing okuden waza (the secrets), or ura waza (reverse techniques) but whether one should be rigid or flexible in the applications of a kata. So, if you're confused then so am I, but I dont think we are (that is unless we're having a geriatric moment).

Osu
Trevor

Ah. A toast to confusion, then! Can't find enlightenment without it!

[trevorg]

Old age is akin to the continuous learning cycle of martial arts. Once you've reached what you think is the pinnacle you go right back to where you began !

Now where did I leave my incontinence pads .......?

osu
Trevor

[trevorg]

BTW, if I might be permitted to say, this has been a very stimulating thread.

Osu
Trevor

[Sheree Adams]

Hi all,

I would like to say that I also, have enjoyed this thread. And, once again, Trevor Gilbert has said it much better than myself displaying that his limits of the language are not as great as others, i.e., myself. Thanks.

Zach,
It is hard to communicate that which is much easier to explain physically. While people do tend to over intellectualize concepts (beautifully explained by Trevor Gilbert, I might add) and be a mighty keyboard warrior, I believe that you have asked legitimate questions in a true desire to learn more.

One important aspect of training that is often overlooked, and is almost extinct, is the invaluable time spent with your sensei talking about technique. Training used to take place in the dojo, sensei's house, whatever, followed by food and drink. Everyone trained together, then ate together. That was the time to ask questions, listen to history by your Sensei, and spend the time learning the conceptual teachings you desire. Sadly, now, if people do go out with their sensei it's in a "buddy" kind of way and most of the time is talking inanely about things that don't matter. There's something said for carrying over the roles and responsibilities inside and outside the dojo. While the time training on the dojo floor is imperative, I believe that one cannot fully comprehend the intricacies without that time spent sitting on the dojo floor as well.

Never give up the quest for knowledge. You started a good discussion. I learned a lot.

I would like to say that this is the most civil group of people posting to an online discussion that I have encountered for quite some time. Most of the online groups seemed to have digressed to a very rude, argumentative, and disrespectfully bunch of people that would never dare to behave that way in person, especially in the dojo. I must commend this forum for I believe, in this case, it has been used as it was intended, to further the knowledge of all involved.

Thank you,
Sheree

[trevorg]

Sheree,

I dont know if anyone has welcomed you to e-budo, but if not a warm hello.

There is always an issue on forums, emails or any form of discussion where face-to-face just isnt going to happen and in so doing, of course, much gets lost in translation, misunderstanding, mis-communication etc. That is not to say that some are more or less literate than others and therefore have less or more to contribute, it is to do with the medium in which we choose to communicate. Time (or lack of it) also plays its part, I believe, as largely speaking posts are terse and consequently not always to the point. My mother was a great letter writer and I have inherited that characteristic, but you need to take time out to compose and think things through. The web doesn't afford us that luxury it seems and because of this the message doesnt always get across (in either direction).

With regard to your point about training used to take place in the dojo, sensei's house etc. Taking this further, which I don't think this is thread drift because it is closely intertwined with every aspect be it bunkai or whatever, I do agree that the modern western world in which live is conducive to the 'buddy' approach rather than that which you succinctly described.

From my own experience I can say that from the day I first started training 35 years ago I was in awe of my Sensei, and I still am of all my teachers. He is long dead but I remember he always went for a drink in the pub after training with any student that wished to join him, but it was curious to note that most just wanted a closer affinity, a sort of reflected glory, whereas I took the opportunity to discuss a whole range of related issues.

Undoubtedly, he talked and I listened, but as the years went by I was invited to his home for dinner with his wife and mine and was able to obtain a closer understanding of the man, and therefore what karate had done for him in his life. To my mind this helped create a mutual respect; for his part that he had a student who was willing to learn on a much deeper level, and for me to see that karate was just more than block and punch.

At no time, though , was I a buddy. He was my teacher, and I his student.

This is all to do with respect, isnt it ? For example, if I am invited to teach or train at one of my earlier Sensei dojos the first thing I do if I am the first to arrive, is sweep the floor. This has nothing to do with the humility bit, or creeping up Sensei's rear view mirror, but it should come as a natural consequence of the respect you have for your Sensei. These small acts will allow further discourse on the deeper meanings otherwise it is impossible to learn and all that a student will learn are the motions and not the real purpose, and more to the point what it does for one's life as a whole.

Moving on to the issue under discussion, kata bunkai, it is clear that a new student will be shown the technique, told to practice it and just get on with it, and so they do (or should). It is not for the student to question the technique, modify it to suit themselves etc, but as time passes the student will discover more from the technique and if they do find themselves in discussion outside the dojo they might even learn what lies behind the technique and how much more there is to it than first appears.

As I have said before, the kata should not be changed, ergo nor should bunkai. If a kata is changed then it is not the same kata any more, nor is the bunkai. It has become a different animal with different applications. That's fine for some, it just isnt what it was and consequently it has been lost.

Osu
Trevor

[Nyuck3X]

Moving on to the issue under discussion, kata bunkai, it is clear that a new student will be shown the technique, told to practice it and just get on with it, and so they do (or should). It is not for the student to question the technique, modify it to suit themselves etc, but as time passes the student will discover more from the technique and if they do find themselves in discussion outside the dojo they might even learn what lies behind the technique and how much more there is to it than first appears.

As I have said before, the kata should not be changed, ergo nor should bunkai. If a kata is changed then it is not the same kata any more, nor is the bunkai. It has become a different animal with different applications. That's fine for some, it just isnt what it was and consequently it has been lost.

Osu
Trevor

I agree. Most of my "discoveries" occured when I moved away from my
Sensei and started training alone or with a student. (This was after 15
years of training with him).

I keep the form of the kata because I interpret my role in budo as an
conserviter. It is all we have from the last known Masters and I for one would
like to see this tradition continue. I respect every Ryuha's interpretation
and enjoy the diversity.

As for eating with Sensei. I used to train in the backyard of my Sensei.
Afterwards he would invite us in where he and his wife would cook for us.
We all eventually would contribute in one way or another. I agree that
you can learn a lot through this kind of interaction, but the most valuable
thing I ever got was my relationship with Sensei and my Sempai. For
me, the dojo is most than a place to learn Karate. It is also a place
where social skills and bonds can be aquired.

Peace.

[Shorin Ryuu]

My viewpoint will be a little different.

Back in the old days, it was easy. They just used the word "imi", which literally meant "meaning". I think all these other terms got kind of crowded in later.

Chibana Sensei would teach 3 levels of meaning for the movements. The first level was taught to schoolchildren, the second was taught to high school-age, and the third, provided the student was ready, was taught to adults. Level 3 tended to be more lethal and not something easily comprehendible or necessary for younger students.

But the difference in meaning wasn't: Level 1 is block, Level 2 is an arm bar, and Level 3 is quadruple pressure point exploding heart throw... it was more like Level 1/2 were reinforced blocks, while Level 3 was a block with a finger tip thrust (opening moves of Patsai, for example).

I am in the minority in most places with regards to my stance on this. Due largely to the glamor of MMA grappling or the mystique of Chinese-looking techniques, it is very much en vogue to have as much grappling/pressure points/flavor of the week as possible in your "bunkai". For Chibana Sensei, the meaning was simple because the technique was just that, "simple". It was the interaction of your posture, stance, timing, and muscle/ligament/tendon/bone usage that turned a Mickey Mouse block into a devastating attack on the arm, causing the opponent to literally collapse on the floor (he was known for this).

For many, there is a lack of understanding of the very basic fundamentals of power as applied through the Itosu-Chibana framework, therefore the "simplistic explanations" that I tend to train in for the meanings of the kata seem weak, unsophisticated, and impractical. But if you focus more upon how you perform the technique rather than coming up with inventive meanings, all you will need in a fight is an understanding of distance (and how to close it) and timing combined with strong strikes, blocks, and kicks. The "how" is what makes it strong, not the "why".

For Chibana Sensei, there were no secret meanings or esoteric techniques. It was simple, but that made it extremely powerful. Somebody somewhere mentioned that basic techniques could not possibly stand up to the myriad of possibilities in a fight. I would argue that because of their simplicity, they stand the best chance of doing so.

Lastly, there is much ado, usually in more Western countries, regarding the "rigid" adherence to kata and meanings. They feel it is better for people to express their individuality or personal preference in the techniques and meanings they train in. My view on this is that if you want to express your individuality, go become an artist. If you have a scientific methodology you are working towards, then people training in the same methodology will start to look the same. Certain actions cause certain results, so if you want to maximize a certain result, then you will tend to train the same actions. This is not a narrowing of the mind, but a broadening. For those who are still trying to discover what they are doing or are a victim of an imperfect transmission of meanings for kata at whatever point up the line... then maybe it is best to experiment. I will stick to my simple methodology.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

[trevorg]

No different to my view at all, John. Very glad we're on the same wavelength.

Osu
Trevor

[Sheree Adams]

Hi John,

Make that at least 3 of us. Thank you for the post.

Sheree

[ZachZinn]

why".

For Chibana Sensei, there were no secret meanings or esoteric techniques. It was simple, but that made it extremely powerful. Somebody somewhere mentioned that basic techniques could not possibly stand up to the myriad of possibilities in a fight. I would argue that because of their simplicity, they stand the best chance of doing so.

I assume you're talking about my comments, but that's not what I said, I was addressing yakusoku type drills specifically, and it was covered further in the thread, I don't think anyone in the conversation doubts the efficacy of basic karate technique, otherwise I just don't see us having this conversation.

Lastly, there is much ado, usually in more Western countries, regarding the "rigid" adherence to kata and meanings. They feel it is better for people to express their individuality or personal preference in the techniques and meanings they train in. My view on this is that if you want to express your individuality, go become an artist. If you have a scientific methodology you are working towards, then people training in the same methodology will start to look the same. Certain actions cause certain results, so if you want to maximize a certain result, then you will tend to train the same actions. This is not a narrowing of the mind, but a broadening. For those who are still trying to discover what they are doing or are a victim of an imperfect transmission of meanings for kata at whatever point up the line... then maybe it is best to experiment. I will stick to my simple methodology.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

Look, from what I have been taught there is more than one interpretation for a given sequence, you admitted yourself there are certain levels of bunkai. Also, frankly the bolded portion of your statement is a little divisive, and i'm not sure I see the point of it.

I think alot of you are really missing the point i'm trying (doing my best) to make, and assuming I'm advocating some crazy super-grappling bunkai or something. I'm not, nor would any of my teachers ever point me in that direction.

All I am talking about is that in my experience the gap between the simple "block then punch then this then that" and what seem to me to be more "advanced" techniques is large.

The reason I posted the Saifa clip earlier was to give an example of this, ever seen Saifa performed? Doesn't look a whole lot like this, and there are certainly other valid interpretations than this particular drill.

What part of the above do you all disagree with?

Again, please stop assuming I (or anyone else) are advocating some crazy bunkai, I don't think we are.

Anyway it's been an enjoyable thread, and i've learned alot from it, I don't have alot more to say.

[ZachZinn]

I was thinking a bit more about what i'm trying to verbalize (really this is the last time ) and I thought I'd get a little more specific.

Here is an example from my own past a long time ago, something I was actually told by someone:

The double gedan barai thing in anaku (don't know what you call it sorry) was a block to simultaneous kicks...things like that. So there is simple-sub optimal too, not just simple=good.

I guess that's what I was trying to get across, you see plenty of weird interpretations that are simple too, rather than all the questionable stuff simply being questionable due to complexity.

Anyway like I said, it's been fun but I think i've clarified what I wanted to say, and now i'll try to end this all on a friendly note, thanks for the great conversation guys.