Trying Okinawan Karate

[Geoff]

After several years of Shotokan training I was forced to scale back my practice over the past three years due to family and work obligations. I now have the opportunity to resume more regular karate practice, but I'm several hours away from my Shotokan sensei and a little long in the tooth for the local university club. There are, however, two local schools I'm interested in. One teaches Goju-ryu - I've visited and am impressed. The other teaches Matsumura Seito Shorin-ryu. I'm trying to schedule a visist for later this week or early next. As a Shotokan person I'm hoping this school will pan out.

From the Okinawan karateka here, what should I expect to see at this school? From a Shotokan bias all Shorin-ryu looks a little flippy/floppy to me, what should I look for to judge whether the training is credible or not?

Thanks,

[Prince Loeffler]

From the Okinawan karateka here, what should I expect to see at this school? From a Shotokan bias all Shorin-ryu looks a little flippy/floppy to me, what should I look for to judge whether the training is credible or not?

Thanks,

Since you have a fundamental background in Karate, it should not be hard to make a final assesments after training for several weeks or even a month.

However, I gather from your post that you already pre-judged and pre-determined that all okinawan style as flippy/floppy system. Why even try , if you think all shorin ryu are flippy/floppy ?

Us Okinawan karateka do not make judgement or assesments against our japanese karate counterparts for being rigid and tight as if they have a grenade stuck up their O ring seal when they do kata.

So how was your day ?

[Mitch Saret]

LOL @ Prince...that was good!

But seriously now, there are those that would argue Shotokan is indeed an Okinawan system, because it was created by an Okinawan. Those people forget that it was developed for the more militaristic Japanes mindset.

However, what you could expect is this: for the most part similar techniques. Shorter stances. Less rigid formalities like kata not necessarily having to end in the exact spot you started. A little more Chinse influence. Example;Japanese techniques tend to block with one hand strike with the other, Chinese tend to block and strike with the same hand.

These are, of course, huge generalities and may or may not apply depending on the instructor's teaching style.

[Geoff]

Thanks Mitch. That kind of information is helpful. I guess in Prince I've found someone moodier than my nine year old daughter...

I think that the nearly 20 years I spent banging around the MA scene prior to my semi-retirement a few years ago does allow me to judge whether students are throwing good front kicks, reverse punches, etc. But what I do not know is whether or not what I am watching is "good" Shorin-ryu. That is, I could sit in on a Shotokan class and tell you within a few minutes whether or not it was good Shotokan, but I do not have the experience to discriminate between good and bad Matsumura Seito Orthodox Shorin-ryu Karate. That is what I'm hoping the experienced members of this forum will help me with. Obviously, if I had written off Shorin-ryu as Prince said I just wouldn't bother.

At 36 years old I'm trying to find a new home. My choices are Goju-ryu and Shorin-ryu unless I want to go back to TKD (been ther - done that) or wrestle the young turks at the local MMA club (and I'm too old to play hard like that all the time now). I've always been interested in Shorin-ryu and I hope it works out.

[Prince Loeffler]

I guess in Prince I've found someone moodier than my nine year old daughter...

This is funny !!!

But what I do not know is whether or not what I am watching is "good" Shorin-ryu. That is, I could sit in on a Shotokan class and tell you within a few minutes whether or not it was good Shotokan, but I do not have the experience to discriminate between good and bad Matsumura Seito Orthodox Shorin-ryu Karate. That is what I'm hoping the experienced members of this forum will help me with. Obviously, if I had written off Shorin-ryu as Prince said I just wouldn't bother.

Try it out for a few weeks to see how you feel about the art. Physically and mentally. After that , ask yourself will you be comfortable enough to spent your time. Its far the best suggestion I can dispense.

[Timothy.G.B.]

Hi Geoff:

I don't think you will get much from this forum asking about a particular style of Okinawan karate. When I hear your question, I immediately think about the incredible diversity of karate that claims Okinawan heritage. From my experience, there are good Okinawan style instructors and bad OKinawan style instructors. There are teachers who know a lot and teachers who think they know a lot

I tend to think more in terms of "whose" Shorin does someone do, "whose" Matsumura Seito, "whose" Goju ryu? If you can find out that information, it makes some things easier and complicates others, especially in a public forum like this one. When you look at the person as opposed to the style, it can potentially give you a lot more information. Just remember that everyone's style is the best and so is their teacher

I would say go to as many schools as you can and watch an entire class. If you like what you see, start training! If not, don't go back. This is probably not anything you don't already know.

Best,
Tim

[Liam Cognet]

I think Shorin Ryu would be more in line with your Shotokan. I believe Shorin Ryu and Shotokan and both of shuri te decent. Goju Ryu (which I practice) come from Naha te.

[Nyuck3X]

Shotokan and Shorin-ryu philosophy is different.
Shotokan's power generation is different and fights at a longer distance.
Shorin-ryu is fighting in a telephone booth. This may be the reason why they
look different to you. I have 2 Shotokan BB with me and they are still trying
to get used to the distance.

Not that one is better than the other, IMO it is the practitioner.

[sauzin]

I'd suggest judging the Shorin-ryu class the same way you'd judge any class. Does it work? You say Shorin-ryu looks flip/floppy to you. Does flip/floppy work? Flip floppy can mean a lot of things. They might be making extensive use of double hip motions, which does work when done right. They may be more relaxed and more fluid. Those things definitely work. If something doesn't look like it would work, or work as well as something else, then ask about it. If it's a good Shorin-ryu school (or good martial arts school for that matter) in almost all cases they should be able to explain what they are doing, and why they are doing that and not something else.

If you're infering that their kata is sloppy this is best judged by specifics. Do they hit the same positions each time they go through the same kata? Do they look before they move? Are their stances stable when and where they need to be? Are their movements deliberate and performed with intent? Is their power transfer running along good structures? These principles are universal when it comes to kata.

Really when it all boils down to it, it has to work. The principles that make things work are universal. I think you've got enough of a BS sensor to know if their explanations on how their movements work don't pass the test. If that's the case find something else, but it's been my experience that most Shorin-ryu is very solid and very effective. I haven't seen a Shorin-ryu school yet that wasn't.

Best Regards,

-Paul Holsinger

[Geoff]

Thanks for all your help and good humor. I've already checked out the Goju-ryu dojo and next week I'll visit the Shorin-ryu school. I'm excited to get back into training and learning again.

[ryukyu2000]

Geoff san:

A few important points. Because of muscle memory, adaption to stylist differences will require an open mind and time to make the necessary adjustments. Of importance, it is not only what they system 'looks like', but what is happening -- that is where the quality instruction comes into play and separates good from bad and it occurs across styles. I would suggest that perhaps you try both systems and go with the best instructor. As a practitioner of a small branch of Shorin Ryu and with a few prior decades a Japanese/American organization(s), the Shorin Ryu which I train is runs very deep and the stance/redirection/striking location all play a vital role in practicality based training. In short, don't judge the book by the cover.

Yours in karate-do.

Andy Morris
Shobayashi Shorin Ryu
Delmar, NY USA

[Hank Irwin]

James Coffman Sensei is back living in the north and is holding a seminar the 14th of August, very close to you. He and my Teacher R.L. Osborne lll are probably the greatest source when it comes down to Soken O'Sensei's art despite what many say. Just refference Coffman Sensei on google and you will get his web site, I "think" it is at www.smokausa.com IMO Shorin will be your best bet...it is where ShotoKan traces it's roots. Funakoshi changed his Shurite for fear of reprisal from the Okinawans, the Japanese have ALWAYS looked down on the Okinawans as peasants. Anytime you train in an art for a long period of time you will have troubles when it comes down to studying an other art. Just be patient and learn as much as you can when you can.

[Hank Irwin]

It's at www.smoka-usa.com

I had hoped to be at this seminar, but unfortunately will not be able to make it. If you are genuine and courteous, you would not believe the doors you will open at this seminar. Coffman Sensei is a very down to Earth kind of guy, but, he hates BS when it comes down to training.

[CEB]

....

From the Okinawan karateka here, what should I expect to see at this school? From a Shotokan bias all Shorin-ryu looks a little flippy/floppy to me, what should I look for to judge whether the training is credible or not?

Thanks,

First thing I would look for is, Which teacher do you think could give you the worst butt whipping and still be somebody you think you could feel good in associating with. I do some Goju Ryu. I like Goju Ryu but I have met Goju people who can't do squat. Style is nothing.

[ZachZinn]

Well, I think you should probably do Goju. It's what I do, so it must be better. Just kidding.

Seriously though.....good karate is at least 50% about who you're learning from. Try them all out with an eye towards quality of instruction rather than the external differences in kata performance, etc.

I actually did Shorin a long time ago, I picked my Goju school based on the quality of the instruction I saw there, even though I had to unlearn and relearn alot of things it was worth it.

So...it's the teacher -not the style- you should be most concerned about in my opinion.