KATA: Passai

[twayman]

Good suggestion Rob. I sent Joe Swift an e-mail to see if he has the time to give some input.

[Sochin]

Here is a link to a Shorinjiryu Passai from Richard Kim's lineage:

http://www.bakerracinekarate.com/mpeg/patsai.mpeg

Yes Tim,

Of the 4 Passai kata Sensei Kim taught us, that one is Patsai Dai. Our Sho is shorter and much less complex...I don't see how it could ever be a Dai version. Very interesting...

[Timothy.G.B.]

Hi Ted:

Years ago, when I was doing another karate, it was under the Richard Kim lineage. Not Shorinji ryu per se...but too complicated to get into here

I learned 3 different Passai katas and it wasn't until I started learning Okinawan Shorin (Chibana-ha Shorinryu) that I realized the Passai Dai kata I had been taught before was actually Passai Sho in the karate I was learning.

The three that I learned in the Richard Kim lineage were called Passai, Passai Sho and Passai Dai. The only one of the three that remotely resembles what I am learning now is the one that was called Passai Dai (i.e. Passai Sho, in Chibana-ha Shorinryu). The Passai Dai that I am learning now does not resemble any of the three versions I learned before under the Richard Kim lineage.

Best,
Tim

[the Khazar Kid]

In Hwang Kee's "Soo Bahk Do Tang Soo Do Volume 1" he says this form's original name was "Pal Che". Pal meant "selection of the best choice", or "fast". "Che" meant "collect". Movements were selected from the most famous and effective of Southern Shaolin boxing. The characteristics of Bassai are fast and light, in contrast to an apparently Northern-based form like Naihanchi which is heavy and powerful.

Jesse Peters

[the Khazar Kid]

Interesting to hear about the lion and leopard boxing connections, the only animal I had previously heard of in connection with Passai was the snake, coiling uncoiling striking fast and poisonous. I've definitely practiced this as a snake, I'll try practicing it as a lion or leopard soon and see how it feels different.

Jesse Peters

[Sanseru]

Since Swift-san hasn't replied, I'll try my best to answer this question - but reserve the right to be wrong as I am primarily a "Nahate" guy

_____________________________________________________

Ok, at the turn of the century Itosu Anko included two Passai kata in his school syllabus: Passai dai and sho. Enter Chibana Choshin (ala Tim's lineage), a student of Itosu who learned Itosu's versions, PLUS an additional version called Tawada no Passai. This is corroborated by Murakami Katsumi a student of Chibana who lives in Fukuoka, who Joe-san and I visited on several occassions. At any rate, Murakami stated that when Chibana demo-ed this kata in fron of Itosu, Itosu remarked that it was really good "Ti" and that he should hang on to it. The confusion occurs because Chibana took Itosu's advice and relabeled Tawada no Passai as Passai Dai (this is the Passai demonstrated in Nakasone Genwa's 1938 Karatedo Taikan). He then took Itosu's Passai Dai and relabeled it Passai Sho. Confusing, I know. Itosu's Passai Sho then fell into disuse in Chibana's school as far as I know.


Hope this helps.

[Nyuck3X]

It hasn't fallen out completely. I think Miyahira and Iha still teach it. It's
also known as Passai Gwa. Shimabukuro Sensei learned it from Nakama
Sensei and added it to his syllabus. I learned it a few years ago but
forgot all about it. Now I'm regreting it.

Peace.

[Blackwood]

Miyahira's students still practice Koryu Passai, which is supposedly the third one. There is another entire thread on it in this topic.

[Shorinman]

It hasn't fallen out completely. I think Miyahira and Iha still teach it. It's
also known as Passai Gwa. Shimabukuro Sensei learned it from Nakama
Sensei and added it to his syllabus. I learned it a few years ago but
forgot all about it. Now I'm regreting it.

Peace.

According to Iha Sensei, he calls it Gusukuma no Passai.
Here is a version of the kata by Joki Uema Sensei's group from their taikai held last year. Uema Sensei was a student of Chibana and Gusukuma. It's very close to the version I practice.

To see more video of the
Shorinryu Shubukan Uema Karate Dojo - Karate / Kobudo Enbu Taikai

Passai Gwa is just another way of saying Passai Sho but the question is, what version?

Does anyone know if this kata [above] was known as Passai sho taught by Itosu before Chibana added the Tawada no Passai?

Mario is right, very confusing. Who's on first; What's on second...

Thank you in advance.

Best Regards,
Larry

[Blackwood]

Here's the link to the previous discussion of Koryu Bassai here:

Koryu Bassai

I watched the video link you provided. The kata is identical to the one that Miyahira's students learn that we call Koryu Bassai. When I asked Iha Seikichi Hanshi where he learned it and he told me from his teacher Gusukuma.

[Rob Alvelais]

According to Iha Sensei, he calls it Gusukuma no Passai.
Here is a version of the kata by Joki Uema Sensei's group from their taikai held last year. Uema Sensei was a student of Chibana and Gusukuma. It's very close to the version I practice.

That one, above, looks similar to our Bassai Sho, in Shito Ryu.

Passai Gwa is just another way of saying Passai Sho but the question is, what version?

Does anyone know if this kata [above] was known as Passai sho taught by Itosu before Chibana added the Tawada no Passai?

Well, in Shito Ryu, it seems that the kata you link to above is Bassai Sho.
In a conversation with John Sells, he says that what we shito guys call Matsumura Bassai is the kata that's also known as Tawada Bassai.


So, can we say:

Passai Gwa=Gukusuma Passai= Koryu Passai=Bassai Sho?

Rob

[Blackwood]

No, we can't, because Passai Sho is a different kata in many styles. It may have been the original Passai Sho, but is not today. I think the rest of the equation stands though.

[Rob Alvelais]

No, we can't, because Passai Sho is a different kata in many styles. It may have been the original Passai Sho, but is not today. I think the rest of the equation stands though.

Right, I recognize that in the Shorinkan, at least the Shroinkan Passai Sho = Shito (and many other style's ) Bassai Dai.


So, how about?

Passai Gwa= Gukusuma Passai = Koryu Passai = Shito Bassai Sho?

Rob

[Prince Loeffler]

According to Iha Sensei, he calls it Gusukuma no Passai.
Here is a version of the kata by Joki Uema Sensei's group from their taikai held last year. Uema Sensei was a student of Chibana and Gusukuma. It's very close to the version I practice.

To see more video of the
Shorinryu Shubukan Uema Karate Dojo - Karate / Kobudo Enbu Taikai

Passai Gwa is just another way of saying Passai Sho but the question is, what version?

Does anyone know if this kata [above] was known as Passai sho taught by Itosu before Chibana added the Tawada no Passai?

Mario is right, very confusing. Who's on first; What's on second...

Thank you in advance.

Best Regards,
Larry

What Ryuha is this group ? I like it. Thanks for the link.

[Shorinman]

I watched the video link you provided. The kata is identical to the one that Miyahira's students learn that we call Koryu Bassai. When I asked Iha Seikichi Hanshi where he learned it and he told me from his teacher Gusukuma.

Hi Mark,

I don't think I would say "identical" but very close. In the link I provided, there are some extra moves such as double middle blocks. Aikyoshi Shiroma taught it at the NTS 2001 and is slightly different. Also, after the the kagite uke it's different - the way Shiorma taught it after the kagite uke is the same as Passai Sho aka Itosu no Passai. In the link at the end they do the shuto uke towards the front. The way Shiroma taught it was at a (right) 45 degree angle.

If you have the Shidokan 40th anniversary from Okinawa in 1990 on tape or Iha's 20th anniversary in Lansing demonstration on tape from 1996, Shiroma performs the kata and you'll see what I mean in regards to comparing the kata; it's close but not identical.

It's good to talk to again.

Best Regards,
Larry