1934 Meeting

[Huyen Tuyet]

Hi,

although my inscription was done some time ago, this is my first post since up to now I just enjoyed a lot reading your contributions .

I'm posting here today because I recently came back to read again the translation done by Patrick Mc Carthy of the 1934 Meeting in Okinawa, and something puzzled me a little bit :

In the minutes, we can see that some masters (and not the least !) do not seem to speak at all, or they only answer when asked something. I am speaking of Motobu, Kyan and Chibana of course.

So I would like to know what is the source of the minutes ? I mean : who wrote it down first ?

And is it possible to imagine that Motobu, Kyan and Chibana do not speak because the do not agree, or that their contributions were not written down ?

I am just wondering because what is clear in the minutes is the role of Nakasone Genwa who definetely wants to modernize and "japanize" tode/karate (I also came across the book he wrote with Mabuni Kenwa, showing that he was trying to refute China's influence on karate). The other masters are no so definitive, for example Miyagi states that traditional kata should remain. So, could it be possible that the minutes miss some contributions that would deserve its purpose ?

Thanks for your answers, especially I would be very happy to have M. Mc Carthy's opinion on the issue .

Emmanuel.

[Huyen Tuyet]

So sorry, the meeting was held in 1936 and not 1934 (I was confused with the date of the Karate-do Gaisetsu of Miyagi Chojun) ...

[Prince Loeffler]

Hello Mr. Chasseigne

Can you tell me what other sources or info have you read about the masters meeting in 1936 ?

[Huyen Tuyet]

Hello Mr. Loeffler,

in fact I don't know many other sources than that of Mr. McCarthy.

One of them is in the book of Mr. Sells, "Unante" (probably you already know this book). Another one is the following site which gives another translation of the minutes, as well as some other texts :
http://uk.geocities.com/sanzinsoo/meeting.html

My point was just that it is stated in the preambule of the meeting (in Mr McCarthy's book) that M. Kyan, Motobu and Chibana are present and the minutes do not state much of them, so I was just wondering ...

By the way, Mr. Sells tells that some other masters were attending the meeting :

In addition, Taira Shinken of Okinawan Weaponry, Higa Seiko of Goju-Ryu and Nakamura Shigeru of Kuniyoshi's line were in attendance

(I'm citing "Unante" p.110-111).

[CEB]

I believe the host was a newspaper man named Nakasone. Newspapers guys like to write stuff down ..... just a hunch.

[Patrick McCarthy]

... So I would like to know what is the source of the minutes ? I mean : who wrote it down first ?

And is it possible to imagine that Motobu, Kyan and Chibana do not speak because the do not agree, or that their contributions were not written down ?

... especially I would be very happy to have M. Mc Carthy's opinion on the issue .

Emmanuel.

Hi Emmanuel,

I am here in Canada on tour without my records but, if I remember correctly [as the study project was back during the early 1990's], I believe that my source for the minutes was Toyama Kanken's book [in Japanese], "Karate-do Daihokan."

I can assure you that whatever appears in this first ever English translation of the minutes is everything that appeared in Japanese. I left nothing out.

FYI, I do agree with your sentiment, the meeting was either 'conspicuously quiet' with much of the chatter not being recorded in the minutes or purposely omitted later in Toyama's recollecion.

[Huyen Tuyet]

Hi Patrick,

thank you for your answer.

Of course I never thought that you did cut some portions of the japanese text in your translation I would rather bet that Nakasone and/or some officials have reviewed the minutes before publishing.

And if I remember well, Nakasone has also been a student of Kanken Toyama ...

Emmanuel

[Hank Irwin]

You must remember, the Okinawans wanted to be "accepted" by the NihonGo for ToDe's sake and others reasons....on the other hand some hated the Japs for how they treated them and their ancestors for hundreds of years. They also were beside themselves for changing ToDe to Karate by demand of the Japanese to have this happen. Sad? Hai? So desu ka...

[Shorin Ryuu]

Chibana Sensei was a very humble man and above all else, one who cared little for flowery philosophy and absolutely nothing at all for politics (that's probably why they asked him to head up the first major organization on Okinawa for karate... poor guy). The reason why he was there in the first place is that he was so widely respected as a bushi of martial skill and character. Therefore it is entirely fitting for his character that he wasn't taking the limelight in the discussion.

Chibana Sensei would often get upset when people would disparage Japanese karate because he still felt all karate was Okinawan, no matter what form it took. It is a common assertion that the characters for Shorin 小林, with "shou" (small) and "rin" (forest) used by Chibana Sensei when he first named the style was an error on his part, as the way to spell Shaolin 少林 uses "shou" (few) and "rin" (forest). However, he paid tribute to the Shaolin temple, yet purposely changed the first character in order to distinguish it as Okinawan, as he felt the development and techniques made it different. That being said, he didn't bear any ill-will towards Japanese or Chinese. Incidentally, referring to Chibana-lineage schools as Kobayashi is incorrect, as he never used the term Kobayashi to refer to his style.

It is of no surprise that he mentions Naihanchi. It truly was the old fundamental kata for Shorin Ryu. For him especially, it emphasized the biomechanics of stance (it is a training kata), posture, the use of backpull/reverse lockup, and the tight fist and forearm that are trademarks of Itosu/Chibana karate.

[DustyMars]

Wow, I looked at your blog and saw Goya Chanpuru and Tebichi, even at this time of morning it made me hungry -- and I haven't eaten on Okinawa in 45 years!!!!

I envy you for traveling to the "Rock." I would have gone down there with my Japanese astronomy friends in 2002, but we were in Japan visiting our son and family and couldn't get away. Good thing because from what I hear Okinawa would not be anything like I rememered it to be.

I have failed to find Nagamine sensei's old dojo using Google Earth with much frustrations! The only pointer is the mailing address of and Google will not find it.

[Hank Irwin]

Chibana O'Sensei was an incredible Bushi, Oberlesan your sadness I feel also. My Sensei is Roy Osborne lll, and have been his deshi for over 30 years. UchinaDe is a gift I will treasure till the stars fall from the sky....KoDo ne Rei....BTW I spoke with James Coffman Sensei last night and he informed me he would be going to "The Rock" end of Sept. I have never had the pleasure of going...yet....I chastize my self for the envy I have...Heiwa my Budo Brothers!!

[Shorin Ryuu]

Yes, it is really something to witness the sadness that people who knew Chibana Sensei display whenever they speak of his last days. The continual themes are always of his martial ability, his personal strength, and his incredible kindness. While it would have been great to see his house (or at least more than the lot his house used to be on) that I have seen in various videos and photographs of him training, I suppose it is of much more lasting legacy to pass on his karate methodology. And when it comes down to it, I would rather have his karate than see his house.

He truly must have been a great man. This much I can see by the respectful yet fond tones many old-timers of various styles or even non-practitioners who knew him use to speak about of him both on Okinawa and Hawaii. While there is sadness for his passing, there is always happiness for having the opportunity to have known him.

[Hank Irwin]

I have many old photos of Okinawa for way back, all b/w. I will look through and see what I can find. I think I have a photo of his burial site, I will check and see what I do have.