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Thread: The kata-speed used in the Koryu traditions

  1. #31
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    Wayne,

    Your post out to be stickied somewhere on this forum. Well said sir.

    Somewhere I read that Kuroda sensei credited his amazing speed to the constant practice of kata over many, many years. For what it's worth.

  2. #32
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    Here are some thoughts from my limited experience. I study both Tendo Ryu Naginatajutsu and Atarashi Naginata. I find the two compliment each other very well. Atarashi Naginata, being more of a sport, tends to have fast, light (whippy) techniques, at least compared to Tendo Ryu. It presents me with a different set of physical and psychological challenges than Tendo Ryu does. However, in my limited opinion, it lacks the combative mindset that Tendo Ryu teaches. For my part, the very real psychological stress that the Tendo Ryu kata create have not only stood the test of time, but also have allowed me to cope with real life stress (work, family, etc) better than the competetive stres of Atarashi Naginata. I see no reason to try to "speed up" the kata that has been handed down to me within the Ryu. In fact, one of the Ryu's senior teachers once began a seminar by telling us, "people have died to bring you these techniques, please do not change them."

    In a similar vein, I once read (was it in one of Dave Lowry's books?) about a koryu student, I think it was Yagyu Ryu, that was told to go fight kendo people only using techniques from the ryu until he could win. Seems like a far better way to test yourself than trying to rush through a kata.

    I think that it is also interesting to note that in comparative test between different athletes, usually the fastest athletes are olympic lifters, which is not a sport that focuses speed, but on technique.
    Best regards,
    Bruce Mitchell

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmuromoto
    Quote:
    Lots of wise words
    That has got to be the most informative thing I've ever read on this forum. But really, no need for you guys to get defensive. I'm here to learn more about the koryu arts, and it's system of teaching, not to attack the way it's taught!

    One main point you guys made was about kata getting faster as you become more skilled. But to be honest, after years and years of training in empty handed styles, I think I forgot to consider how slow I was when I first started! Yeah, beginners should of course start slow and speed up as they get more experienced. That I agree with.

    Another main point you made is the purpose of kata. The kata I do in Taekwondo (and the ones I have seen in other empty handed arts) have almost no practical purpose in real fighting, so I guess I'm a little biased against kata there. Your examples of situations where kenjutsu kata do a good job of conditioning and training have really helped me see the difference between armed and unarmed kata.

    I'm an advocate of live sparring because after many years of studying Taekwondo (properly... not competitively) I opted to have a friendly sparring match with my friend who studies Thai Boxing with very loose rules. And I subsequently got completely beat up over and over again. After that instance I decided to make sure my training is practical.

    And I'd like to clarify that my purpose in learning these arts is NOT to go around looking for fights! I'm not some thug you know... And I'm not some brute either (standard Asian male here =)), but I personally believe that all martial arts were originally created with the purpose of combat, and if we train without that purpose then we aren't doing martial arts at all!

    And this time I will post a disclaimer. Don't take my comments as offensive, rude, or a challenge. Just some friendly debating/questions/comments.

    I really wonder when that UserCP will start working again.

    -John Nguyen

  4. #34
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    I'd also like to point out (after seeing you constantly saying "real fight" in quote marks), other than the fact that the edit function is not working, that personally I have never been engaged in a "real fight". I have, however, been engaged in full contact sparring, and that was more than close enough to the real thing for me.

    -John Nguyen

    EDIT: I can edit this post but not the one above! What gives!? =/

  5. #35
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    There's a timeout. You can only edit for a certain amount of time. 10 or 15 minutes. I forget.

    It encourages thoughtful posting in the first place, since you won't be able to go back and change it later. Or at least it's supposed to
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  6. #36
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    I always found that my kata got slower with practice, even the paired stuff seems to slow down... or at least the time between when my partner starts moving and when I have to move gets bigger, and the more junior the partner is to me, the slower they are moving.

    Mind you, if I go stupid and just make the next move in a kata automatically, without paying attention or waiting for buddy to commit to an attack, I can move my face into a sword that's not supposed to be there VERY quickly.

    Updating EJMAS today and found my comments on the topic of intensity (not strictly speed but what speed is supposed to give you) here: http://ejmas.com/pt/2007pt/ptart_taylor_0703.html

    Kim Taylor

  7. #37
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    You have to go slowly at first otherwise you 'blur' past some of the points which are a fundamental to the waza....to do iai properly you need to include all the relevant points of technique before you start looking at speed, feeling, and timing. You should be able to see this no matter what your grade when you watch say an ikkyu going through a waza. It looks very 'boring' compared to the same waza done by say a hachidan...finesse and levels of understanding, (along with practise of course) is what makes the difference....
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Taylor

    Updating EJMAS today and found my comments on the topic of intensity (not strictly speed but what speed is supposed to give you) here: http://ejmas.com/pt/2007pt/ptart_taylor_0703.html

    Kim Taylor
    That's an excellent article, Unka Kim.

    When I started iai, I bought your first two videos to get a feel for what I was about to undertake and years later, this article is also exactly where I am--a "senior" instructor in charge of a class and needing all the help I can get to push both my students and my class.

    Domo arigato gozaimasu.
    --Neil Melancon--

  9. #39
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    Right! Since this topic has come to a natural conclusion I thought I would take the opportunity to say "thanks" for very interesting and, (for me), very informative discussion. Its honestly always a pleasure reading about the different training-methods which were formed by individuals and individual ryu.


    /Fred
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aozora
    That's an excellent article, Unka Kim.

    When I started iai, I bought your first two videos to get a feel for what I was about to undertake and years later, this article is also exactly where I am--a "senior" instructor in charge of a class and needing all the help I can get to push both my students and my class.

    Domo arigato gozaimasu.
    Glad to hear it Neil, I hope they were of some use. Nice to see that you're still at it.

    Take care
    Kim.

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