Different training approaches of the X-Kans

[shugenja_09]

I would like to know what fellow E-Budo members think the primary differences in teaching philosophy are in how the Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinnenkan/To-Shin-Do choose to transmit there knowledge to the student. From my perspective and experience it seem that To-Shin-Do seeks to empower the student by emphasizing immediate practical application of taijutsu. Genbukan seems to favor strict adherence to precise kata and waza. Jinnenkan, I have no experience in, so I'll be depending on others insights. Bujinkan is hard to define because there seems to not be much of a standard unification of how it is taught, but I would have to say that it primarily emphasizes Nagare and creative adaptation in general, but once again, because the Bujinkan is less structured,"in my view", it is likely that you will find Instructors that focus mainly on Strict Waza and Kata, and you may find another Bujinkan instructor that emphasizes practical application. Now, these general views by no means represent the "whole" of any of these schools, but are what I see as the most apparent approaches, unique to them. I would like the opinions and views of others concerning this topic. Thank you.

Keep Going
Chris Scarbrough

[Juan Perez]

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...ght=difference

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...inkan+genbukan

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...inkan+genbukan

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...inkan+genbukan

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...light=jinenkan

The wonders of the "search" option. However, I did find that there were not that many threads regarding comparisons with Jinenkan. Some Bujinkan/Genbukan threads did, eventually, compare all three and even To-Shindo, but, you'd have to read through them. Hope this helps.

[shugenja_09]

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...ght=difference

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...inkan+genbukan

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...inkan+genbukan

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...inkan+genbukan

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...light=jinenkan

The wonders of the "search" option. However, I did find that there were not that many threads regarding comparisons with Jinenkan. Some Bujinkan/Genbukan threads did, eventually, compare all three and even To-Shindo, but, you'd have to read through them. Hope this helps.

Thank you Juan, but this isn't really what I was asking or looking for. I wasn't looking for answers as to what the differences are, as I already have my views as to what those are. What I was hoping to find was everyones's current perspective of these traits, as I believe they change and progress with time. The responses on those threads seem to display everyones' apprehension towards discussing these things instead of displaying their views of them. None the less, thank you for your suggestion.

Keep Going

[Juan Perez]

No problem, Chris. Your welcome.

By the way, you will find that the "apprehension" you mentioned, still exists and that might be the reason this thread has not received other responses. Although your intent seems well-meaning, there are some that can't answer with emotional detachment. I'd say that your best bet is to PM posters from the various schools that you are interested in learning about, and discuss this with them in private. I'm guessing you are hoping for an open thread where many will participate, but this issue has been brought up before in different forms by other well-meaning posters and many here would hate to re-visit it. Personally, I'd like to see such a contrast and comparison on here myself, so I understand your perspective.

[shugenja_09]

No problem, Chris. Your welcome.

By the way, you will find that the "apprehension" you mentioned, still exists and that might be the reason this thread has not received other responses. Although your intent seems well-meaning, there are some that can't answer with emotional detachment. I'd say that your best bet is to PM posters from the various schools that you are interested in learning about, and discuss this with them in private. I'm guessing you are hoping for an open thread where many will participate, but this issue has been brought up before in different forms by other well-meaning posters and many here would hate to re-visit it. Personally, I'd like to see such a contrast and comparison on here myself, so I understand your perspective.

You have got a really good point Juan. I was wondering if that was the case. I don't think I'll find the conversation I'm looking for on this forum, as most are either unwilling or incapable of pursueing this issue any further than they already have. Once again I thank you for your suggestions and understanding. It' nice to know that you can see what I'm getting at,offer some advice,and leave it at that,all without being condencending,and rude. I really appreciate your integrity,as it is a quality that is diminishing in our society, even among us martial artist.

Thank you

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[Joe Jackson]

Hello, Chris.

If the reason that so few have bothered to respond to your initial question is the one you and Juan think it is, then what a sad world we do live in! Surely there are plenty of balanced individuals who would be only too happy to give their opinion on the differences that they perceive between the aforementioned organizations.

Having trained in all three x-kans and also being good friends with certain people who still train in them, I'll offer my honest observations (not criticisms):

BUJINKAN: ranges anywhere from 'kata sucks and isn't needed any more' to 'without kata, there is no martial art left'. The general feel is one of getting away from the (embarrassing?) ninja stuff and focussing on practicality 'because these arts were designed to be used for real'. The result is an astonishingly fragmented franchise that is merely influenced and in no way controlled by Honbu. If different dojo cho do things completely differently, this is said to be 'natural' and everyone is encouraged to 'find their own taijutsu'. The name (Bujinkan) is the only constant left from those early days of Hatsumi's exploration. Keiko is usually of a theoretical nature and consists of myriad variations and complete departures form a given starting point. Softness is usually emphasised and rarely is any physical conditioning bothered with. This is probably the easiest martial art in the world to assimilate into and become confident in and there is scant interest in physical fitness or prowess; hence the massive number of exponents.

The aim of the organization (apart from making money) eludes me. Personally, I don't go along with the 'under a mandate from heaven to protect universal justice' concept.

GENBUKAN: the most strictly controlled of the three, with etiquette and actual technique very similar from one dojo to the next. However, in isolated places such as Australia, some dojos and training groups are of sub-standard and are in disagreement with one another as far as general practice is concerned. The Genbukan as a whole has managed to resist the Bujinkan-style of personallity-creep across its dojos but, the bigger it gets, the more variation will be seen. The general style of taijutsu is harder and more 'muscular' than the other two x-kans (reflecting Tanemura's style) and, in my view, the technically simplest of the three. Its overall emphasis is on traditional forms, citing kata as being of more importance than 'winging it'. By separating jujutsu from ninpo and by including various combinations of hachimaki and hakama, the franchise manages to retain a substantial minority of kobudo enthusiasts.

The aim of the organization (apart from making money) is to produce experts in Tanemura's way of doing certain Ryu-ha.

JINENKAN: the least cult-like of the three. Its practitioners are free to study anything else (including Bujinkan and Genbukan). The focus is on learning Manaka's understanding of most of the Takamatsu-den arts that Hatsumi taught him. The goal of training is to do the kata with accuracy and effective dynamics and in a 'realistic kobudo way'. Emphasis is placed on kamae and sound physical dynamics. There's not much talk of 'internal energy' etc. I think many Jinenkan members believe that their art is the closest to how it was taught to Hatsumi by Takamatsu. However, there is a lot of free licence given to the dojo cho (or it is at least tolerated by Manaka) and so this franchise is not as well controlled as the Genbukan.

The aim of the organization (apart from making money) is to teach ninpo and Samurai arts to people without the strictness of the Genbukan or the slackness (for want of a better term) of the Bujinkan.

I could elaborate to great extent on all of the above.

Kind regards,

Joe Jackson.

[El Guapo-san]

I disagree with just about every conclusion in the post above. It's probably better to look through the other threads, rather than go for a one-off summary.

Josef Vlach

[Joe Jackson]

Originally posted by Joseph Vlach:

I disagree with just about every conclusion in the post above. It's probably better to look through the other threads, rather than go for a one-off summary.

Great, Joseph! Care to explain why you disagree? Care to lend to the thread by sharing your own understanding, as I did? Tear my post to shreds, if you like. It's all good!

Regards,

Joe Jackson.

[shugenja_09]

El Guapo, I find Mr. Jackson's point of view very helpful and full of validaty. Of course it is not the end all be all of these concepts,but it is his honest opinion,which I believe is of value in understanding these perspectives. You don't have to agree with him on everything,he's not saying that this is the absolute way that it is,just offering what he see's in this topic from his point of view. I might not take his or for that matter,anyones perspectives as being absolute,but I try to take what is useful from the knowledge being shared, I don't really focus on the things that I disagree with though. I have found his verbal expression of these concepts rather insightful and constructive. You have every reason to agree or disagree with him on certain topics,but I would encourage you to elaborate on the things that you agree with in order to keep this discussion "constructive".Or, just give us your perspective of the topic and not just a critique of someone else's response. I hope we can all do that. I just want peoples insights, not so much character assasination,we need to rise above that.


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[shugenja_09]

I disagree with just about every conclusion in the post above. It's probably better to look through the other threads, rather than go for a one-off summary.

Josef Vlach

Why form your opinion off someone else's experiences instead of your own. Who needs their opinions validated based upon the similarities of someone else's. Just my 2 cents.


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[Cujo]

Hi Chris,

I have to commend Joe on his summary, some may disagree but hey....we all have an opinion, but only some are based on experinces! I, like Joe have trained in all 3 xkans, there are many who have! and Joe has done well to summise the different aspects of each pretty accuratley.

In all honestly if you want my personal opinion dont worry about the differences between the xkans, focus on finding yourself a good instructor(that is of course if you dont already have one) that will teach you with integrity and without ego. I currently train with the Buj and not because it is any different to the other x-kans but simply because i have found the right instructor! lets face it, how many of us are lucky enough to train personally with either Hatsumi, Manaka or Tanemura Sensei every week, not me!Lol! so does it really matter which organisation you are a part of?

From my experience i found that no matter which organisation i trained with, the concepts/ideas of training were always diluted from what they were originally supposed to be taught like, Hatsumi, Tanemura and Manaka sensei's all have their own ideas on trainng and the way in which everything should be taught, but lets face it, are you going to be one of the lucky few that becomes a personal student of any of these individuals? if not find the best instructor you can and get him to teach you everything he knows.....no matter what organisation he affiliated to....judge for yourself if he has the "wow" factor you are looking for.

It took me a few goes to find the right one!

Good luck and god speed buddy!

Jamie Phillips

[shugenja_09]

Hi Chris,

I have to commend Joe on his summary, some may disagree but hey....we all have an opinion, but only some are based on experinces! I, like Joe have trained in all 3 xkans, there are many who have! and Joe has done well to summise the different aspects of each pretty accuratley.

In all honestly if you want my personal opinion dont worry about the differences between the xkans, focus on finding yourself a good instructor(that is of course if you dont already have one) that will teach you with integrity and without ego. I currently train with the Buj and not because it is any different to the other x-kans but simply because i have found the right instructor! lets face it, how many of us are lucky enough to train personally with either Hatsumi, Manaka or Tanemura Sensei every week, not me!Lol! so does it really matter which organisation you are a part of?

From my experience i found that no matter which organisation i trained with, the concepts/ideas of training were always diluted from what they were originally supposed to be taught like, Hatsumi, Tanemura and Manaka sensei's all have their own ideas on trainng and the way in which everything should be taught, but lets face it, are you going to be one of the lucky few that becomes a personal student of any of these individuals? if not find the best instructor you can and get him to teach you everything he knows.....no matter what organisation he affiliated to....judge for yourself if he has the "wow" factor you are looking for.

It took me a few goes to find the right one!

Good luck and god speed buddy!

Jamie

Thank you for the advice,but once again I'm not looking for answers to these questions as I have spent pretty much my whole life studying this art,so I have already formed my opinions and have a good understanding of these differences. All I wanted was to hear of some other people's perspectives on this topic. Thank you for your suggestions I am sure many will find it useful.

Keep Going

[Juan Perez]

My own experience:

I have only trained in Genbukan and then, it was Svaral Sensei's Genbukan dojo. Previously I had trained in Okinawan Goju Ryu (nine years) and Vee Jutsu (2 years). The Genbukan I trained in was hard in every respect. The focus was effectiveness in combat. The techniques were tested often. People did get injured at times, but that never bothered me. The teaching was very exacting. I remember doing a technique, as precisely as I could, thousands of times a day, for weeks, before I was taught to focus on another one. Personally, I trained about four to five times a week. Saturday class was six hours long and most of it was randori and it was very challenging. Svaral Sensei was available on the mat all the time. He either sparred or took part in randori with any and all students. And, when we (advanced students) did step on the mat with Sensei, it was not "baby sitting"; it was tough. Truly the best martial arts training I had taken part in.

Prior to meeting Svaral Sensei and joining that dojo, I considered Bujinkan and visited the local NYC dojo about three times. I sat through several classes. But, I did not find that particular dojo to be what I wanted (at the time, it was the only official Bujinkan Dojo in NYC; there could be others now, with a much more different approach). For that particular dojo, the training was very soft and slow. The atmosphere was too relaxed (my opinion) and they even played Japanese flute music (on a CD player) while people trained; I found that odd.

That was my experience.