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Thread: Okinawan karate, Japanese karate and Koryu

  1. #31
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    The introduction of Okinawa Ti, or at least Funakoshi's version of it, to Japan didn't go off as well as people think. He was at odds with some of his fellow travelers and from what I have read he looked down on some of the Okinawans due to education and social class. It is hard to remember but somewhere I have read and/of been lectured to by some who actually knew the participants that even Jigoro Kano was somewhere put aback by Funakoshi’s attitude towards the uneducated masses. Kano was an earthy man who taught anyone his techniques, where as it was told to me Funakoshi felt his art was more or less intellectual and therefore above the average Joe, of Masato, as it were.

    Historical accounts are not exact and even lectures are not 100%, but it just seems to me revelry still in present in the different schools and islands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnst_nhb
    You would not hear them refer to themselves as that. Just like you would not hear them refer to themselves as "-san" or "-sama".
    Let me rephrase that. I've never heard the term at all used by anyone, whether in reference to themselves or others... it's just not done (at least not by Japanese).
    -John Oberle-
    Personal martial arts site:http://bujutsublogger.blogspot.com/

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DustyMars
    The introduction of Okinawa Ti, or at least Funakoshi's version of it, to Japan didn't go off as well as people think. He was at odds with some of his fellow travelers and from what I have read he looked down on some of the Okinawans due to education and social class. It is hard to remember but somewhere I have read and/of been lectured to by some who actually knew the participants that even Jigoro Kano was somewhere put aback by Funakoshi’s attitude towards the uneducated masses. Kano was an earthy man who taught anyone his techniques, where as it was told to me Funakoshi felt his art was more or less intellectual and therefore above the average Joe, of Masato, as it were.

    Historical accounts are not exact and even lectures are not 100%, but it just seems to me revelry still in present in the different schools and islands.
    Interestingly, Funakoshi was invited to make his karate part of the kodokan's judo, but declined.

    And frankly, I'd love to see revelry between the different schools, but given some of the infighting I've seen... Heh, just take shotokan and shotokai! Still fighting, decades later, over the karate equivalent of "What she said about our Mabel!"
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorin Ryuu
    Let me rephrase that. I've never heard the term at all used by anyone, whether in reference to themselves or others... it's just not done (at least not by Japanese).
    Really???

    Ever hear the term gaijin or kokujin?
    John R. Stebbins
    Seattle Kobukan
    Matsumura Kenpo
    seakobukan@matsumurakenpo.org
    http://www.matsumurakenpo.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnst_nhb
    Really???

    Ever hear the term gaijin or kokujin?
    Yes... I can read, write, and speak Japanese.

    I'm saying that I've never heard the term "INSERT STYLE HERE"-jin as someone who did that style.
    -John Oberle-
    Personal martial arts site:http://bujutsublogger.blogspot.com/

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorin Ryuu
    Yes... I can read, write, and speak Japanese.

    I'm saying that I've never heard the term "INSERT STYLE HERE"-jin as someone who did that style.
    Did not mean to insult your intelligence, John. Apparently, I misunderstood you. I understand now.
    John R. Stebbins
    Seattle Kobukan
    Matsumura Kenpo
    seakobukan@matsumurakenpo.org
    http://www.matsumurakenpo.org

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnst_nhb
    Did not mean to insult your intelligence, John. Apparently, I misunderstood you. I understand now.
    Nah, it's okay.
    -John Oberle-
    Personal martial arts site:http://bujutsublogger.blogspot.com/

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    Interestingly, Funakoshi was invited to make his karate part of the kodokan's judo, but declined.

    And frankly, I'd love to see revelry between the different schools, but given some of the infighting I've seen... Heh, just take shotokan and shotokai! Still fighting, decades later, over the karate equivalent of "What she said about our Mabel!"
    It depends on whose history you believe. The Kodokan did invite him to train there when he had no place to do it and according to some old sensei he actually did for some time. After he left Motobu came to teach and was well received. Motobu was more inclined to scrape with the Judoka there and have fun, whereas Funskoshi was trying to forget he was Okinawan and establish his tied with the military in Japan.

    Now, that is just what some old 8,9 and 10th dans told us. In the past few decades people, especially in the USA, refer to Funakoshi as the father of Japanese karate; however, when I trained under Nishiyama sensei he really never referred to Funakoshi as more than another Okinawan up to visit relatives in Japan. Shotokan was but one karate they taught us at the SAC-SRDC class at the Kodokan and Police dojos. Karate sensei were interested in my training in Shorin and conversation about how we GI’s liked the island.

    The truth is that some sensei in both places distrusted others almost as much as they distructesd us GI's

  9. #39
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    Greetings

    I am not sure that today the differences are that great. I suspect that historically Okinawan karate focused on practical application where its Japanese counterpart focused on developing the minds of its participants.

    When I say historically, I refer to the 1900s as karate was not introduced into mainland Japan until that time period.

    I also believe that "Traditional" karate is a method of self-defence handed on from generation to generation. It is a "link with the past' and tends to not only be a collection of techniques but also general principles; of movement, self defense theory, TCM, or of life and death.

    Traditional karate is likely to carry on established practices or standards that have evolved from earlier forms and it denotes a
    respect for its roots and for the cultural identity of the art (Okinawan and Japanese) - contrasted to having been created or
    defined artificially or arbitrarily.

    The word traditional is many times confused with "static" or "unchanging" or sometimes seen in the light of fundamentalist
    rhetoric that labels it "sacrilege" or "heresy". This is furthest from the truth as all traditions including Traditional karate have
    evolved and continue to evolve naturally from its earlier forms, thus leaving the new to take over the mantle of "tradition".

    Tradition within karate is expressed in (and grows from) the techniques handed on from generation to generation and through the
    ideas, from the great teachers, on movement or theory that tints a learners' perception and moves them unconsciously.

    Tradition develops and evolves in the sense that the karate practitioner probes more deeply into the meaning of all that has
    been handed on. Tradition implies adaptation and growth in continuity with the past. If there is no room for adaptation and
    growth, we are not talking about tradition but about imitation. If there is no concern with continuity, that is, with loyalty to the
    goals and ideals and tasks of the past as we learn it from its history, then we are not speaking of tradition but of fads and
    fashion and disorientation.
    Anthony DiFilippo
    Ryukyu Kodokan Dojo
    http://www.silkroadenterprisecn.com

  10. #40
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    Default Okinawan karate, Japanese

    Ahrat/Lohan being were considered at the bottom of the "human" chain. Being a higher order at one time. Searching for truth, but having an abundance of knowledge they seek on for more truth.

    The UchinaDe are a dying race, the Japanese being the descendants of. If you are fortunate enough to speak to the older generation you will see that the NihonGo have always looked down on the Okinawans like peasants. But, the Japanese have always considered themselves "above" the Okinawans. That is one of the reasons Funakoshi was warned and threatened with his life by Motobu for one, if he devulged the true essense of OkiDe. Funakoshi sought to be emulated as the Father of Japanese KarateDo, but that is Japanese in thought, not Okinawan.
    Hank Irwin
    www.geocities.com/bushinoji
    A.O.A.
    Academy of Okinawan Arts

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Irwin View Post
    Ahrat/Lohan being were considered at the bottom of the "human" chain. Being a higher order at one time. Searching for truth, but having an abundance of knowledge they seek on for more truth.

    Where are you getting your defnition on the word "arhat" from? It is a buddhist term as far as I know and it is described adequately in this wikipedia entry:

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that as far as the term goes in buddhism it's unusual to say the least for someone to call themselves an arhat.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arhat

    Just curious where your taking the above defnition from, as i've read a fair bit of buddhist scripture and this doesn't exactly jive with it. If you have a specific sutra or something you could throw out as a reference?

    The UchinaDe are a dying race, the Japanese being the descendants of. If you are fortunate enough to speak to the older generation you will see that the NihonGo have always looked down on the Okinawans like peasants. But, the Japanese have always considered themselves "above" the Okinawans. That is one of the reasons Funakoshi was warned and threatened with his life by Motobu for one, if he devulged the true essense of OkiDe. Funakoshi sought to be emulated as the Father of Japanese KarateDo, but that is Japanese in thought, not Okinawan.
    Are you saying that mainland Japanese are somehow descended specifically from ancient Okinawans?
    Last edited by ZachZinn; 5th November 2007 at 00:20.
    Zachariah Zinn

  12. #42
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    Default Funakoshi was warned?

    Dear Irwin san

    I am interested in your source for your statement "That is one of the reasons Funakoshi was warned and threatened with his life by Motobu for one, if he devulged the true essense of OkiDe." Also who else threatened Funakoshi and what other reasons were given for not devulging the true essense of the art.

    Regards
    Anthony DiFilippo
    Ryukyu Kodokan Dojo
    http://www.silkroadenterprisecn.com

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