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Thread: Okinawan karate, Japanese karate and Koryu

  1. #16
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    As a comment about the nature of the koryu bugei, they weren't just swordsmanship. Each ryu-ha had a variety of -jutsu that were taught, and only some were weapons, such sojutsu, kenjutsu, bojutsu, etc. Some things that were taught were such things as siege tactics and weaponry, stealth and assassination techniques, poisoning, etiquette, horsemanship, "magic," the list goes on. And each koryu taught different things in different ways. While I will grant you that there was no specific teaching in politics-jutsu, I'm sure they learned it anyway. They were also very very interested in things Chinese, which they studied, at times, even more intently than things purely Japanese, so saying that they didn't learn from China is incorrect. Look at Japanese art for examples of this.
    Very much a renaissance set of arts, in that way.

    As for Japanese karate, one of the major differences between Okinawan and Japanese is that the universities took karate up in Japan, and it tends to incorporate distancing more appropriate to the kendo shiai than to a brawl, as well as stances more appropriate to physical exercise(longer, in other words). This holds especially true for Shotokan. There was also a break in transmission due to WWII, which killed a lot of people and took most karateka out for military service. As a result, a lot of it was forgotten. (like the entire second half of a kata called Wankan, or which way to turn in Seisan/Hangetsu.) The grabbing and grappling which can be found in many Okinawan styles of karate was ignored because Judo was already there.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  2. #17
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    Default Okinawan karate, Japanese karate and Koryu

    If you look to Shaolin Tsu(Shorinji) you will see Hsing-I, Bagua and Lohan in Okinawan ToTi. The transmissions of the internal practices also traveled to Uchina since 8th century...IMO that is what is the differences between Okinawan KoDo and Nihon Bujutsu. But not all Okinawan jutsu practiced this, it was for a different reason. But, I am only a lowly Ahrat, what do I know of these things?
    Hank Irwin
    www.geocities.com/bushinoji
    A.O.A.
    Academy of Okinawan Arts

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Irwin
    If you look to Shaolin Tsu(Shorinji) you will see Hsing-I, Bagua and Lohan in Okinawan ToTi. The transmissions of the internal practices also traveled to Uchina since 8th century...IMO that is what is the differences between Okinawan KoDo and Nihon Bujutsu. But not all Okinawan jutsu practiced this, it was for a different reason. But, I am only a lowly Ahrat, what do I know of these things?
    Internal martial arts concepts have existed in Japan for a long time too. Maybe you could argue there is none in their Karate, I don't know. Pretty hard to say that Aikido, Aikijujutsu, etc. are not internal on some level though.

    Honestly I really don't see the influence of Hsing-I or Bagua on karate, what ryu are supposedly historically connected to it?

    What is an ahrat?
    Zachariah Zinn

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZachZinn
    Internal martial arts concepts have existed in Japan for a long time too. Maybe you could argue there is none in their Karate, I don't know. Pretty hard to say that Aikido, Aikijujutsu, etc. are not internal on some level though.

    Honestly I really don't see the influence of Hsing-I or Bagua on karate, what ryu are supposedly historically connected to it?

    What is an ahrat?
    A quick Google search turns up a few meanings. All seem to have something to do with possessing an advanced state of enlightenment. Though that could be a mis-spelling of arhat.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    As a comment about the nature of the koryu bugei, they weren't just swordsmanship. Each ryu-ha had a variety of -jutsu that were taught, and only some were weapons, such sojutsu, kenjutsu, bojutsu, etc. Some things that were taught were such things as siege tactics and weaponry, stealth and assassination techniques, poisoning, etiquette, horsemanship, "magic," the list goes on. And each koryu taught different things in different ways. While I will grant you that there was no specific teaching in politics-jutsu, I'm sure they learned it anyway. They were also very very interested in things Chinese, which they studied, at times, even more intently than things purely Japanese, so saying that they didn't learn from China is incorrect. Look at Japanese art for examples of this.
    Very much a renaissance set of arts, in that way.

    As for Japanese karate, one of the major differences between Okinawan and Japanese is that the universities took karate up in Japan, and it tends to incorporate distancing more appropriate to the kendo shiai than to a brawl, as well as stances more appropriate to physical exercise(longer, in other words). This holds especially true for Shotokan. There was also a break in transmission due to WWII, which killed a lot of people and took most karateka out for military service. As a result, a lot of it was forgotten. (like the entire second half of a kata called Wankan, or which way to turn in Seisan/Hangetsu.) The grabbing and grappling which can be found in many Okinawan styles of karate was ignored because Judo was already there.
    Just an observation; the last shotokan gin I encountered was a fellar at Bergstrom AFB, TX who joined our kajukenbo get togethers. He had just made nidan and we compared his kata with what I remembered and some of the kenpo stuff. The class picked up on the differences right away and we discussed it all. IMHO, remembering that shotokan is a more rigid stretched out method that appears to use more strength and less fluid movements. Most of the purely Okinawa karate is less rigid, more relaxed and a more natural stance – plus we evolved more hand work that foot work. The method of kenpo we did there was similar to Okinawa methods but more fluid and uses a lot more jujitsu stuff.

    Of course, a discussion of the different Okinawan karate would take volumes. I did Matsubayashi and a little goju, and watched some Ueshi-ryu when I lived there. I could then and now see some big differences between those schools, even now as I review the available videos around the Net. I suspect it would take someone who had experience in those three to really see the differences, but I noticed right away those differences between Okinawa and Japanese style karate. Not a great explanation, but that all I got.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DustyMars
    Of course, a discussion of the different Okinawan karate would take volumes. I did Matsubayashi and a little goju, and watched some Ueshi-ryu when I lived there. I could then and now see some big differences between those schools, even now as I review the available videos around the Net. I suspect it would take someone who had experience in those three to really see the differences, but I noticed right away those differences between Okinawa and Japanese style karate. Not a great explanation, but that all I got.
    Yeah, most of that really stretched out stuff evolved at the universities. Funakoshi's stances were higher, but the university clubs wanted more phys-ed. So rather than go do phys-ed, they lengthened the stances, made 'em harder to do, etc. Bunkai for those lengthened stances came AFTER the lengthening, and isn't always, ummm, reliable. I've seen some ridiculous bunkai for the shotokan kata, like jumping over swords, blocking the samurai's wrists, and then whacking him. (Heian Godan) Another fun one is three bunny hops, one long and two short, which is variously interpreted as jumping over corpses, over dropped weapons, or whatnot, when really all you're doing is getting back to your starting point (Chinto). Like I said, a lot of the depth of the kata was forgotten during WWII, which interrupted the training of most of the people who later became bigshots in the JKA. They had to reconstruct the kata from what they remembered of their pre-war training, and weren't always successful. As I said before, one of the JKA kata, Wankan, is missing the entire second HALF.

    Actually, one thing I find really amusing is that the people who practice the koryu bugei generally look down on Japanese karateka, because they don't find any decent heiho in the kata. The ones I've talked to, like Dave Lowry and Meik Skoss, like Okinawan karate just fine, but not Japanese. They tend to practice aikido, aikijutsu, or something like that if they want to do a gendai martial art. Not generally karate.

    BTW, what's a shotokan gin?
    Trevor Johnson

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    I will state simply what I know Okinawan karate to be and let others draw their own conclusions as to how it relates to Japanese karate.

    The Okinawan Shorin karate that I know is smooth, relaxed, and powerful. The stances are natural, narrower, and shorter with toes pointed out to allow the flowing of hara forward and stepping is done heel to toe. Weight is towards the outside of the foot. The transition between each technique is just as important as the endpoint, to include how stepping is done and how the entire body moves from A to B. Moving with the weight continually into the opponent to crowd him is what we call "osae".

    Flow does not mean there is no kime. Without kime, there is nothing, just like without a strong stance or a good posture, there is nothing. There is no muscling of technique, but there is an incredible amount of muscle, ligament, and tendon usage.

    The rhythm of movement is done at a natural breathing pace with no artificial breathing. While it does flow, there is a staccato when there is kime. It flows relaxed into the kime. Each movement is done with a separate "count", as maximum power is generated for each block, strike, and kick. The goal is to end the confrontation with a single technique.

    The emphasis on analysis is not on "what" is being done in kata, but on "how" it is being done. Knowing the meaning of movements is necessary, but knowing how to do it is essential. The interaction of stance, posture, timing, weight, and muscle/tendon/ligament/skeleton usage is what is analyzed. The "what" appears to be incredibly basic, because it is. The vast majority of our meanings for kata are simply punch, kick, and block. There is some grappling, but it is quite simple--again, the emphasis being on "how" and the transition between movements rather than "what". The meaning, or bunkai (popular term used nowadays), should match the kata movement exactly. Any deviation and either the meaning or the movement is wrong.

    When fighting, there is no offset between you and the opponent. You walk straight in and destroy him; there is no deviation. The goal is not an exchange of technique, it is one-sided destruction.

    Okinawan karate is neither Chinese nor Japanese; it is Okinawan. It borrowed some from Chinese arts, but its nature and development is uniquely Okinawan. I have seen karate with so much flow and no kime it looks like Tai Chi. I have seen karate with so much tension and muscling it looks like the robot. I have seen karate with so much grappling it looks like judo or chin na. None of these is the Okinawan karate I know.
    -John Oberle-
    Personal martial arts site:http://bujutsublogger.blogspot.com/

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    So what you're saying is Shorin ryu is Okinawan karate. Good to know. Seriously though, it seems like a good defnition, but a Shorin - specific one in some regards.
    Zachariah Zinn

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    Shotokan-jin, a person who does Shotokan.

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    Maybe it's just me... but I've never heard any Shotokan people refer to themselves as Shotokan-jin. Or any other style say "Style"-jin.
    -John Oberle-
    Personal martial arts site:http://bujutsublogger.blogspot.com/

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    I really don't think those who favor Okinawa karate look down on Japanese karate. It is a simple observation. When I lived there I had no idea of Martial Arts politics and would not question sensei, no matter which one. Never heard much bragging on which was best nor do I observe any looking down on others. That is for imature people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorin Ryuu
    The meaning, or bunkai (popular term used nowadays), should match the kata movement exactly. Any deviation and either the meaning or the movement is wrong.
    I agree with everything you said except for this. Or, maybe I should say that there are clearly very specific bunkai for every kata movement, however, there is a good bit of interpretation once a karateka is advanced.

    My opinion and the opinion of my teacher (the founder of my style) only...take it for what its worth.
    John R. Stebbins
    Seattle Kobukan
    Matsumura Kenpo
    seakobukan@matsumurakenpo.org
    http://www.matsumurakenpo.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorin Ryuu
    Maybe it's just me... but I've never heard any Shotokan people refer to themselves as Shotokan-jin. Or any other style say "Style"-jin.
    You would not hear them refer to themselves as that. Just like you would not hear them refer to themselves as "-san" or "-sama".
    John R. Stebbins
    Seattle Kobukan
    Matsumura Kenpo
    seakobukan@matsumurakenpo.org
    http://www.matsumurakenpo.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnst_nhb
    You would not hear them refer to themselves as that. Just like you would not hear them refer to themselves as "-san" or "-sama".
    I was just wondering if Wayne Muramoto was going to rate Shotokan gin in one of his alcohol posts.
    Trevor Johnson

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    Quote Originally Posted by DustyMars
    I really don't think those who favor Okinawa karate look down on Japanese karate. It is a simple observation. When I lived there I had no idea of Martial Arts politics and would not question sensei, no matter which one. Never heard much bragging on which was best nor do I observe any looking down on others. That is for imature people.
    I wouldn't say look down on it, but you should realize what causes the distinctly different character of Japanese karate vs a lot of Okinawan karate. Some of it is due to the Japanese fascination with the sword, and to the derivation of their indigenous unarmed arts such as jujutsu, aikijutsu, and their derived do arts.

    Some of it, however, is due to mistakes, forgetfullness, and making things up when they didn't know the answer, and that must be acknowledged. It's part of their history and what makes them unique, and forgetting it or glossing it over is a mistake. Best to know it's there, whether you like it or not. It's one of the reasons why I don't like uncritically accepting Shotokan bunkai into a discussion on bunkai, because you really have to think about them due to some of those errors. Some of the errors are a generation or two old at this point, and so are "traditional" but that doesn't make all "traditions" equal.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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