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Thread: Okinawan karate, Japanese karate and Koryu

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  1. #1
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    Default Okinawan karate, Japanese karate and Koryu

    I have been reading through the forum trying to determine the differences that exist between Okinawan karate and Japanese karate. From the various threads I have read Okinawan karate has less focus placed on a rigid training atmosphere while still maintaining appropriate relationships and formality, while Japanese karate is very rigid. Specifically I have read this regarding time, structure and content. I have also seen that Okinawan karate places a focus on kata and functionality while Japanese karate places and emphaisis on sparring and the sporting aspect of karate, however, these are all generalities.

    I see some similiarity between the nature of a traditional Okinawan dojo and that of a Japanese koryu dojo. Of those of you who have trained in both do you see similarities in either the structure of the class or system of instruction utilized.

    Any thoughts?
    Jeff
    Jeff Brown

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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus
    I have been reading through the forum trying to determine the differences that exist between Okinawan karate and Japanese karate. From the various threads I have read Okinawan karate has less focus placed on a rigid training atmosphere while still maintaining appropriate relationships and formality, while Japanese karate is very rigid. Specifically I have read this regarding time, structure and content. I have also seen that Okinawan karate places a focus on kata and functionality while Japanese karate places and emphaisis on sparring and the sporting aspect of karate, however, these are all generalities.

    I see some similiarity between the nature of a traditional Okinawan dojo and that of a Japanese koryu dojo. Of those of you who have trained in both do you see similarities in either the structure of the class or system of instruction utilized.

    Any thoughts?
    Jeff

    Having trained in both Japanese and Okinawan Systems, All I could for what little I know is the obvious differences in the Kata and its interpretations of the bunkai section. The kumite aspect is really a matter of dojo interpretations. I have seen Shotokan stylist fights like Shorin Ryu stylist or vice versa. In my own opinion at least.
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    Okinawans are short and wide.

    Japanese are just short.

    DustyMars

    The main difference is that is that the mainland Japanese borrowed karate from the Okinawans.

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    I've sometimes asked myself the same question Morpheus poses. Although my experience is mainly in Japanese and Korean-Japanese karate I've tried to read as widely as a I can on the subject. My conclusion (really more of a semi-educated guess) is that Japanese koryu training and old-style Okinawan training were similar in that they were both oriented toward combative application rather than shiai. However, I suspect that were I to step through time and space (and suddenly develop language fluency, too) I'd notice a distinct difference in the training. Koryu arts were most often taught (at least in the mid to late Tokugawa) by professional instructors who were contracted to deliver a certain kind of knowledge to their clients or were transmitted through strictly class-based senior-junior relationships. Look at "Legacies of the Sword" for an expansion of this. While Okinawan MA seemed to follow a more Sinocized pattern in which students applied through various means to be accepted by teachers who largely freelanced and had complete discretion over who and what they taught (unlike a Japanese sensei who might have been hired to teach a specific curriculum to any number of sons, nephews or vassals of a daimyo). Also, as in Chinese MA, Okinawan sensei were likely to have knowledge of many related disciplines such as medicine, strategy, politics, dance, etc. Since these teachers were not hired to instruct just one curriculum and had selected their own students they felt free to expand their pedagogy to include elements of related arts. Funakoshi, for example, expalins in his autobiography how his Okinawan teacher Azato Anko would instruct him in politics, etiquette and even the Chinese classics in addition to karate. I have not read of many Japanese sensei who were given as much freedom to develop the personal characteristics of their students.

    Just my $.02, anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff
    I've sometimes asked myself the same question Morpheus poses. Although my experience is mainly in Japanese and Korean-Japanese karate I've tried to read as widely as a I can on the subject. My conclusion (really more of a semi-educated guess) is that Japanese koryu training and old-style Okinawan training were similar in that they were both oriented toward combative application rather than shiai.....etc
    \


    Hmmm good food for thought, i'd never thought about it like this, thanks.

    It's always seemed to me koryu arts had a very "rigid" (don't mean that negatively) curriculum in terms of teaching order, etc. compared to Okinawan karate, I wonder if this is also related to what you describe.
    Zachariah Zinn

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    Default Okinawan karate, Japanese karate and Koryu

    If you look at both cultures you will obviously see why they differ so much. The Japanese consider themselves "above" the Uchinaguchu because they meshed and inter-breeded with the Chinese. The Japanese hate anything Chinese, and the Okinawans treasured anything To(Chinese). IMO that is why the Japanese got "Karate" and not Tode no KoDo. Too bad ne? LOL
    Hank Irwin
    www.geocities.com/bushinoji
    A.O.A.
    Academy of Okinawan Arts

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    Greetings

    I am not sure that today the differences are that great. I suspect that historically Okinawan karate focused on practical application where its Japanese counterpart focused on developing the minds of its participants.

    When I say historically, I refer to the 1900s as karate was not introduced into mainland Japan until that time period.

    I also believe that "Traditional" karate is a method of self-defence handed on from generation to generation. It is a "link with the past' and tends to not only be a collection of techniques but also general principles; of movement, self defense theory, TCM, or of life and death.

    Traditional karate is likely to carry on established practices or standards that have evolved from earlier forms and it denotes a
    respect for its roots and for the cultural identity of the art (Okinawan and Japanese) - contrasted to having been created or
    defined artificially or arbitrarily.

    The word traditional is many times confused with "static" or "unchanging" or sometimes seen in the light of fundamentalist
    rhetoric that labels it "sacrilege" or "heresy". This is furthest from the truth as all traditions including Traditional karate have
    evolved and continue to evolve naturally from its earlier forms, thus leaving the new to take over the mantle of "tradition".

    Tradition within karate is expressed in (and grows from) the techniques handed on from generation to generation and through the
    ideas, from the great teachers, on movement or theory that tints a learners' perception and moves them unconsciously.

    Tradition develops and evolves in the sense that the karate practitioner probes more deeply into the meaning of all that has
    been handed on. Tradition implies adaptation and growth in continuity with the past. If there is no room for adaptation and
    growth, we are not talking about tradition but about imitation. If there is no concern with continuity, that is, with loyalty to the
    goals and ideals and tasks of the past as we learn it from its history, then we are not speaking of tradition but of fads and
    fashion and disorientation.
    Anthony DiFilippo
    Ryukyu Kodokan Dojo
    http://www.silkroadenterprisecn.com

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    Default Okinawan karate, Japanese

    Ahrat/Lohan being were considered at the bottom of the "human" chain. Being a higher order at one time. Searching for truth, but having an abundance of knowledge they seek on for more truth.

    The UchinaDe are a dying race, the Japanese being the descendants of. If you are fortunate enough to speak to the older generation you will see that the NihonGo have always looked down on the Okinawans like peasants. But, the Japanese have always considered themselves "above" the Okinawans. That is one of the reasons Funakoshi was warned and threatened with his life by Motobu for one, if he devulged the true essense of OkiDe. Funakoshi sought to be emulated as the Father of Japanese KarateDo, but that is Japanese in thought, not Okinawan.
    Hank Irwin
    www.geocities.com/bushinoji
    A.O.A.
    Academy of Okinawan Arts

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Irwin View Post
    Ahrat/Lohan being were considered at the bottom of the "human" chain. Being a higher order at one time. Searching for truth, but having an abundance of knowledge they seek on for more truth.

    Where are you getting your defnition on the word "arhat" from? It is a buddhist term as far as I know and it is described adequately in this wikipedia entry:

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that as far as the term goes in buddhism it's unusual to say the least for someone to call themselves an arhat.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arhat

    Just curious where your taking the above defnition from, as i've read a fair bit of buddhist scripture and this doesn't exactly jive with it. If you have a specific sutra or something you could throw out as a reference?

    The UchinaDe are a dying race, the Japanese being the descendants of. If you are fortunate enough to speak to the older generation you will see that the NihonGo have always looked down on the Okinawans like peasants. But, the Japanese have always considered themselves "above" the Okinawans. That is one of the reasons Funakoshi was warned and threatened with his life by Motobu for one, if he devulged the true essense of OkiDe. Funakoshi sought to be emulated as the Father of Japanese KarateDo, but that is Japanese in thought, not Okinawan.
    Are you saying that mainland Japanese are somehow descended specifically from ancient Okinawans?
    Last edited by ZachZinn; 5th November 2007 at 00:20.
    Zachariah Zinn

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    Default Funakoshi was warned?

    Dear Irwin san

    I am interested in your source for your statement "That is one of the reasons Funakoshi was warned and threatened with his life by Motobu for one, if he devulged the true essense of OkiDe." Also who else threatened Funakoshi and what other reasons were given for not devulging the true essense of the art.

    Regards
    Anthony DiFilippo
    Ryukyu Kodokan Dojo
    http://www.silkroadenterprisecn.com

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