Combination wrist lock for sword taking

[john_lord_b3]

I have a technical questions to all of you my good Aikido friends. In the Hakko-ryu that I am learning, starting from Sandan-gi level and above, there are combination wrist locks, which is (some say) to help facilitate weapons disarming. For example, Uke attack with shomen uchi with knife, Tori move in to intercept the strike, uses an elbow control to break Uke's balance, then execute a Shutozemi (aikido people might recognize this as Nikyo) to loosen Uke's grip on the knife, then take away the knife while maintaining control with a Sandan Tekubidori (aikido people might recognize this as Sankyo).

The technique I describe above is an ohyo (application). These combination tricks also exists in the formal Kata, for example the Nukiuchi Dori and Tsukikomi Dori in Yondan-Gi of Hakko-ryu.

My question is:

1. I am sure these techniques exists also in Aikido. From which level do you start learning them?

2. Can you give specific examples on how to execute such combinations in Aikido?

Many thanks!

Ben

[Amir]

Obviusly, the answer to your question is not uniform, and would have to be Dojo and Sensei dependent, sometimes even the same teacher may change his methodology over the years, or may use a periodical changing methodology into which you join at some point not related to the periods.


With us, wrist locks are taught from the very first days. We do not have a strict order for most of the locks, so one student may learn Nickyo first and another may learn Sankyo (despite the numerical names).

We normally start teaching the locks in the most prearranged, static and non threatening situation one can imagine - a simple wrist grab, or dash grab, with very well directed minor pressure in the grab (which actually helps the Kuzushi). The beginner then progresses to dynamic grabs - adding a timing element, but still no threat. The next stage would be Shomen Uchi or Yokomen uchi, since in these strikes it is easier to read and the lines of power are very well defined. And then we progress on to teach those techniques in various punching situations etc.
This all process is not done un-ordered repetitive style, meaning - having learnt the next stage once, should not prohibit you from doing the first one once again, for the same technique. And further, you may sometimes jump a certain stage for one technique, normally after you tried it with another.

The training process describes so-far is typically covers something like 5-10 techniques over the first two years of study (significantly prior to 1Kyu) .


Practicing against sword attacks is often given as a spice to training those techniques, mostly when the teacher feels the students can grasp more regarding their mae (timing and position). It is rarely given as a standard practice unless a significant part of the practitioners are 1Kyu and above (we have a mixed group, and the ratio of veterans always changes).


Lastly - I would be very skeptic of any such defense against a realistic sword attack, even if the attack had been performed by one of us, and not by a kendoka. (We sometimes try at half speed with Shinai - and the successful technique rate was 50% at most unless the attacker was a beginner compared to the Tori).


Amir

[john_lord_b3]

With us, wrist locks are taught from the very first days. We do not have a strict order for most of the locks, so one student may learn Nickyo first and another may learn Sankyo (despite the numerical names).

same here, we are learning by doing repetition of static Kata, from Shodan-gi to Yondan-gi. Only after we train in Kata, then we are allowed to do Ohyo (applications).

We normally start teaching the locks in the most prearranged, static and non threatening situation one can imagine - a simple wrist grab, or dash grab, with very well directed minor pressure in the grab (which actually helps the Kuzushi). The beginner then progresses to dynamic grabs - adding a timing element, but still no threat. The next stage would be Shomen Uchi or Yokomen uchi, since in these strikes it is easier to read and the lines of power are very well defined. And then we progress on to teach those techniques in various punching situations etc.

Aha, so we are not too dissimilar to each other

Practicing against sword attacks is often given as a spice to training those techniques, mostly when the teacher feels the students can grasp more regarding their mae (timing and position).

In our Dojo it is part of the syllabus, at the Sandan-gi and Yondan-gi level.

Lastly - I would be very skeptic of any such defense against a realistic sword attack, even if the attack had been performed by one of us, and not by a kendoka. (We sometimes try at half speed with Shinai - and the successful technique rate was 50% at most unless the attacker was a beginner compared to the Tori).


Amir

The techniques in our Omote no Kata (all techniques from Shodan-gi to Yondan-gi is considered as Omote no Kata = surface kata, the most basic, you are only touching the skin not the essence) is not considered as "for self-defense", rather, they're simply tools for teaching the basic mechanism of the Waza. after we understand the basic mechanism, then we can apply them against more serious attacks in more serious situations. That's Ohyo (applications). From Kata to Ohyo usually takes a year for a reasonably talented practitioners.

But anyway, I agree with you, that in reality, defending empty-handedly against a sword expert is suicide!

[PRehse]

But anyway, I agree with you, that in reality, defending empty-handedly against a sword expert is suicide!

Of course not defending is suicide also.

I have watched a number of koryu enbu demonstrations in Japan and there is invariably unarmed defenses against sword - aikido is not unique in this.

Most of these, working from memory, have the person closing distance (which is where I think they have to be extremely fast and lucky) to a position where the mechanics are applied (a point where the sword is far less effective).

Anyway - I enjoy training them but don't expect to go out hunting crazed sword experts.

[john_lord_b3]

Of course not defending is suicide also.

I have watched a number of koryu enbu demonstrations in Japan and there is invariably unarmed defenses against sword - aikido is not unique in this.

True, even my own Wado-ryu and Hakko-ryu has Shinken Shiraha-dori, and the Takagi Yoshin-ryu which I learned as part of Genbukan/KJJR has Muto-dori.

I prefer to see those archaic training methods as tools for teaching ma-ai. But I never ever entertain the thoughts that I will be able to actually pull it off against an expert swordsman

Then again, as you said, not defending is also suicide, that's why we carry smoke bombs and shuriken

[Thirza]

Hai,

As I have understood from my sensei the wristlocks have their origine in the few posible responses to a sword attack. During normal training we do not use the Bo-ken often but from time to time we do so. This makes the basic rules about timing, ma ai and realy coming close to your Uke very real. Without the Bo-ken I tend to make big (to big) movements, followed by small (to small) movements. Put in the reality of the bo-ken and it will correct me both as Uke and as Tori.

Thirza Schraa

[john_lord_b3]

hi Thirza, hoe gaat het met jou?

What you sensei had said is similar to what I have heard long ago, that the many types of wristlocks evolved from sword techniques, and that includes sword disarms (and knife disarms). One example in the Aikido world will be the uke attack with shomen uchi using bokken, tori defend with ikkyo start, but then use a sankyo or nikkyo to take the sword.

[Thirza]

Hai John

met mij alles goed..

Yes, that is one of the things we do. Using the Bo-ken in this makes ma ai a real 'problem' entering for the Ikkyo whilst a bo-ken is moving.

My Sensei is the most part of his life studing different types of Budo. He wants to stay near the roots off things

thirza.