Makiwara in Ryu Te

[shorin student]

Hello All,

I was wondering if anyone could tell me what type of conditoning is used in Ryu Te.

I heard that they stopped using body conditoning(makiwara, bag etc.) about 20 yrs ago. Or stopped emphasizing it.

Just wondering

John Cross

[Hank Irwin]

All KoDo styles of UchinaDe use makiwara and other mich. "tools" for conditioning. Makiwara is essential for developing knuckle, wrist, and arm strength. Also strengthens shoulders, waist and stomach muscles. Makiwara is first punching tool one should use before striking anything else but, knuckle ups should start before punching anything, to keep from damaging the bones in hand and wrist, and to safeguard the arm and elbow from unnecessary damage from force generated in striking makiwara. IMHO please.

[shorin student]

Thank you for the reply.

I was under the same impression.

The makiwara has been an important part of my training for over 20 years.

As I was told though- Taika Oyata has chosen not to include makiwara training in his teachings for the past twenty years.

Motobu-ryu does not include any makiwara training according to Mark Bishops book. So would you think that Oyata sensei, because of his relationship with Uehara Seikichi chose to discontinue this training method?

John Cross

[Hank Irwin]

It may be, that he leaves this up to his students. If you were to ask of him personally, you might see a different answer. Most students don't want to go through koteitae. But if you wish to train KoDo ToDe? you do koteitae. It can make ALL the difference in a physical confrontation.

[shorin student]

Agreed.

I love the hard stuff. It has been ground into me for too long not to love the conditioning.

[Hank Irwin]

Always make sure you use conditioning/healing oils before and after. And massage especially after. I am at the level now where I strike stone, I've busted 2x4's in half with seiken many many times, after these years of training, with not much effort. My Sensei punches steel. When he hits you even softly, it's like being poked with a metal rod. Those that think body conditioning is useless? They have nooo idea. But I have been Karateka for 35 years too. My Sensei? 54 years. Still learning? Yes, still learning.

[Duanew]

In my experience as a Matsumura Shorin Ryu guy (Matsumura Seito, Kenshin Kan and Matsumura Kenpo) each of the styles have emphasized body conditioning, Makiwara and Kote Aite. I have a video of body hardening using a post bolted to the floor in the dojo . It serves as a makiwara for open and closed hand strikes, kicks, knees, elbows and head. Kote aite is done by striking the rest of the body against it. The more conditioned you are the harder you hit it.
I have a makiwara in my dojo. Tomosada Sensei says if you want to make your hands strong hit something strong-like concrete or steel (see the karate segment on "Human Weapon" to see "the village rock" . I heard stories-perhaps from other members of the list-of students on top of Kise's dojo punching the square pillars and breaking them.
My personal training has gone from lots of conditioning to not much conditioning and now I am starting again. For kote aite by myself I use an oak ton bo and strike arms, legs, and torso. I know others use the "Okinawan tuning fork" same concept except the wood is shaped like a tuning fork...Anybody know why?
I hit the makiwara enough to make my hands strong but no big callouses. With kote aite my goal is to take a decent hit (from most people) and keep on going. I used to be able to take a full power roundhouse to the thigh and walk away (sometimes limp). I am attempting to get back there.
I guess it all depends on your level of desire and perceived need.

[johnst_nhb]

Duane,

Reminds me of a time that a certain ex-member of our Association (who was known for his bumbling ways) said for a machiwara just "tie a white belt to a tree and punch it". A certain mutual friend of ours turned to me and said something like "I tried that but he wiggled too much".

[Hank Irwin]

Sensei's.....be nice to your Kohais. LOL

[Oyatafan]

Master Oyata doesn't stress the use of the makiwara because from his viewpoint, the makiwara was used as more of a lesson. Meaning, if you have a student who's a little high strung, aggressive, he might send that student to punch the makiwara to burn off some of that energy so that he can train in a calmer state. He may also use the makiwara as a way of teaching a student about the pain he causes to others in a fight. Master Oyata is a VERY philosophical, forward thinking when it comes to those kinds of things. In his book, he mentions that, yes, the makiwara may toughen your knuckles, but constant training will weaken your wrists. He mentions that boxers don't hit hard objects, they hit the bag, which is more like a body.

[FFMAC]

I agree on the conditioning. Koteitae and makiwara are essential to proper training. I have used a makiwara for about 15 years and I know with out it my technique would look different and would not have the effectiveness it has. Koteitae I have been doing for about 20 years and I break louisville slugger baseball bats with my forearms has a result of it. Simple fact is it works when done correctly.

[Hanbaga]

In his book, he mentions that, yes, the makiwara may toughen your knuckles, but constant training will weaken your wrists. He mentions that boxers don't hit hard objects, they hit the bag, which is more like a body.

I don't buy this. Has anyone on this group who trains on machiwara developed weak wrists as a result? The average training session I'm experiencing these days involves about 500 tsuki on the machiwara with each hand. It has probably been the most instructive training aid in the dojo.

One thing I will say though, is that my aim isn't to build mega knuckles. It's kind of an incidental side effect. More important for me would be developing a tsuki that is the same on a machiwara, a bag, an opponent, or in the air. While a solid unmoving machiwara has it's place, I'm finding that a more flexible machiwara is actually harder to hit and stick to. It presents a whole new set of challenges, especially a narrow one. The pliability is not all that far off from a person's body. And some of the punching bags I've used feel as though they're full of rock or sand, not like a person's body at all.

John, good to see you on this thread. Now that Paul B. is back in your neck of the woods, I anticipate you'll have a great training partner for body-conditioning as well as a wealth of other material. He is tough as nails, so knowledgeable, and has been such an important mentor in my life. Do take advantage of the opportunity. Hope all is going well!

[Kevin73]

Duane,

Reminds me of a time that a certain ex-member of our Association (who was known for his bumbling ways) said for a machiwara just "tie a white belt to a tree and punch it". A certain mutual friend of ours turned to me and said something like "I tried that but he wiggled too much".

Thanks for that, I laughed out loud. Just what I needed on a dreary rainy day.

This discussion has also put me in the mood to close my office door and do some knuckle pushups now!