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Thread: Seiza in Iaido

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    Default Seiza in Iaido

    Personally I practice some Toyama Ryu Battoujutsu, all kata are from standing stances.

    There seems to be a lot of ryu doing battou from seiza position. I was wondering what is the explanation behind that? Considering you don't really carry your long sword into the house and get seated in seiza position?

    Thanks

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    Use the search function on the forum controls mate. This one has been done a couple of times.

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    I asked a buddy that very question----he indicated that most koryu were not exactly designed for fighting "inside your house" so judeging their training by looking at it thu the lens of what would be considered proper "manners" is probably less than accurate.

    He also asked me if I thought weight lifting was a "waste of time?"

    I asked him "why?" and he said "well, how many times are you going to lie in your back and lift an opponent stright up into the air?"

    I said, "yeah, but that's just training--helps make you stronger, you don't actually assume that you have to be laying on your back for it to be a benefit to your training...........oh."
    Chris Thomas

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    Quote Originally Posted by cxt
    He also asked me if I thought weight lifting was a "waste of time?"

    I asked him "why?" and he said "well, how many times are you going to lie in your back and lift an opponent stright up into the air?"

    I said, "yeah, but that's just training--helps make you stronger, you don't actually assume that you have to be laying on your back for it to be a benefit to your training...........oh."
    HAHAHAHA! Now THAT is probably one of the most effing brilliant things I've read in a good wee while.
    Increase My Killing Power, Eh?
    -Homer Simpson

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    Good answer, Chris!

    BTW, some people seem to think that doing iai-kata from seiza is a modern invention. Omori Ryu's "seiza-iai" was founded in the first half of the Tokugawa-/Edo-period, around 1700!

    As this happened in the midst of the "time of the samurai", I suppose this people knew exactly what was usual, what were the customs of the buke of their time, and why they nevertheless introduced this form of iaijutsu training.

    Best regards,

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    I was reading this book about Samurai which had a photo of some wax dummies recreating a scene out of old Japan, the picture looked like this:

    A Samurai visiting a Daimyo. They were sitting in seiza facing each other and there were Guards on either side of them. The Samuari did not have a long sword(still had short one), the Guards and the Daimyo did have long swords.

    So maybe, some people did sit in seiza with long swords. It may not have been the rule of everyone, all of the time.
    Last edited by Liam Cognet; 9th September 2007 at 22:58.
    Liam Cognet

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    Two comments.

    At our dojo we do waza from Seiza because sensei does them. Sensei does them because his sensei does them. His sensei does them because the soke does them. The style as an institution finds value in training from seiza. Enough value that the seiza waza have been handed down for more than a dozen generations.

    Second, everyone always points out that wearing a sword indoors would have been conisdered rude as it indicates that you don't really feel safe enough to leave your sword outside. But what if you don't feel safe enough to leave your sword outside? Or maybe you just feel rude?

    Don't get me wrong, I don't think the waza are found in koryu systems because it was thought that practitioners might need to fight from seiza, but obviously some benefit is believed to exist.

    And I'll add my vote to the search the archives call. There is a wealth of opinion on all sides of the issue already recorded in the archives.

    Here's a good example of why the community is in no particular hurry to go back down this road.

    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...ighlight=Seiza

    Please don't resurrect that thread.
    Last edited by Charles Mahan; 10th September 2007 at 01:56.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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    For iai goshi (?)

    If wee are to look at it historically;
    It was normal, and still is today, that when you move in lets say a forest in the dark and you don’t want to be found you crouch down whenever a sound gets your attention. The closer you get to the ground the smaller is the chance to be found. You wont get seen in any moonlight and if you are lower than you enemy, you will more easily detect him, before he detects you. So, you fall down in seiza to get your body lower to the ground and to get more control of you’re surroundings. And it is beneficial for you that you are under the height that would be normal to swing a sword.

    This explanation I have hared in regards of iai goshi (?). But would it not be plausible for the same reason in seiza?
    Let’s say you have wandered for long in the forest and want to take a pause. Insteand of iai goshi (?) all the time you want to sit in seiza. And with enough practice you could be as practical with the sword from seiza as from iai goshi(?).
    Steffen Gjerding
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    Yup, lousy english

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefffen
    This explanation I have hared in regards of iai goshi (?). But would it not be plausible for the same reason in seiza?
    Let’s say you have wandered for long in the forest and want to take a pause. Insteand of iai goshi (?) all the time you want to sit in seiza. And with enough practice you could be as practical with the sword from seiza as from iai goshi(?).
    I have to imagine it would be highly implausible. Seiza has always been an indoor posture of formality, coming into popularity in the Edo period with the rise of the tea ceremony. It is bearable on a zabuton (where it is generally seen outside of iaido/budo circles), quite uncomfortable on a smooth floor, and painful outside, unless on some nice soft grass with no rocks digging into your shin bone.

    Other disadvantages would be decreased lateral and retrograde movement (and if you're on soft, comfy grass, pivoting on your knees is not going to be easy), and circulation problems. Further, there were much better alternatives, more comfortable and more combat-ready. The agura position (sitting cross-legged) was (is) far more comfortable, and while it shares the movement disadvantages of seiza, would be not especially difficult for a Japanese of the time to transfer from agura to tate-hiza. Sitting agura would force the warrior to take his sword from his obi, which would facilitate a quick draw if things got hasty. (Even modern Japanese can get up from agura without using their hands, so I imagine most bushi back in the day also could.) If the warrior really wanted to rest, he could simply sit tate-hiza from the get-go. Or kiza, which is like seiza, but with "live" toes.

    Historically, and practically, I can't imagine a warrior expecting trouble while making his way through a forest would drop into seiza willingly.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, ţonne he ćt guđe gengan ţenceđ longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearađ. - The Beowulf Poet

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    The forms of iai from TSKSR work within this principle, you are lying low, the sword in your saya to make sure it doesn't reflect moonlight, but it's not seiza. If you have to sit it's just quite easy to get your sword off your obi, giving you more ease if you are to draw it.

    The Ogasawara school of ettiquette (official one in Edo jidai) was pretty strict on this, you don't wear you sword in seiza. This school was created for the bushi with bushi problems and expectations in mind. Now you could do this with a wakisashi, but that would be a very different maai and you would not be wearing it the same way, or maybe a tachi, but that again would be different, and was more of a symbol than something you would be expecting to use (at least in the Edo period). I can only see it as a training tool, what benefits you get I'm not sure, but I don't really care never did seiza iai, I'll let the knee pads problems to others .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max Chouinard
    ...The Ogasawara school of ettiquette (official one in Edo jidai) was pretty strict on this, you don't wear you sword in seiza.
    And yet it was because of the influence of the Ogasawara Ryu that seiza was introduced into the training regimen of the various sword schools.

    Ironic, eh?

    And I agree: cxt's weight-lifting analogy is one of the best responses I've seen to date.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Most plausible explanations I've heard was that swinging swords from or while in seiza was meant to teach the practitioner how to engage his hips for more leverage. I suppose that isn't to mention that if a person can capably react with his sword from seiza, he can do it from any position. Defines iaido, IMO.

    Michael Hodge

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    And yet it was because of the influence of the Ogasawara Ryu that seiza was introduced into the training regimen of the various sword schools.
    Please elaborate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Reyer
    I have to imagine it would be highly implausible. Seiza has always been an indoor posture of formality, coming into popularity in the Edo period with the rise of the tea ceremony. It is bearable on a zabuton (where it is generally seen outside of iaido/budo circles), quite uncomfortable on a smooth floor, and painful outside, unless on some nice soft grass with no rocks digging into your shin bone.

    Other disadvantages would be decreased lateral and retrograde movement (and if you're on soft, comfy grass, pivoting on your knees is not going to be easy), and circulation problems. Further, there were much better alternatives, more comfortable and more combat-ready. The agura position (sitting cross-legged) was (is) far more comfortable, and while it shares the movement disadvantages of seiza, would be not especially difficult for a Japanese of the time to transfer from agura to tate-hiza. Sitting agura would force the warrior to take his sword from his obi, which would facilitate a quick draw if things got hasty. (Even modern Japanese can get up from agura without using their hands, so I imagine most bushi back in the day also could.) If the warrior really wanted to rest, he could simply sit tate-hiza from the get-go. Or kiza, which is like seiza, but with "live" toes.

    Historically, and practically, I can't imagine a warrior expecting trouble while making his way through a forest would drop into seiza willingly.
    Also historically, very few low-middle ranking bushi had tatami in their houses. It was mainly an elevated platform of floorboards over a clay dirt base.

    Several ryuha still do jujutsu and iai kata from agura & kacchu zuwari. You can move from agura/kacchu zuwari very easily to kiza. It's all in the kahanshin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Reyer
    It is bearable on a zabuton (where it is generally seen outside of iaido/budo circles), quite uncomfortable on a smooth floor, and painful outside, unless on some nice soft grass with no rocks digging into your shin bone.
    Other disadvantages would be decreased lateral and retrograde movement (and if you're on soft, comfy grass, pivoting on your knees is not going to be easy), and circulation problems. Further, there were much better alternatives, more comfortable and more combat-ready. The agura position (sitting cross-legged) was (is) far more comfortable
    Careful; you make a number of assumptions about the ease/comfort of sitting in seiza versus agura, etc. I am not commenting on the use of seiza in iaido per se (have done that enough in old threads) but your assumptions bely a bit of cultural bias which may not necessarily be true.

    Regards,

    r e n

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