Aikido and Qinnashou (Chin Na)

[john_lord_b3]

Hello Aikido friends. I just watched a video from Institute of Chinese Kung Fu, showing Chin Na (art of grabbing and seizing) techniques. The teacher is grandmaster Huang. I am very surprised because the techniques looks 90% identical with Aikido and Jujutsu techniques. It has techniques which looks like Katatedori Nikkyo, Kosadori Nikkyo, Munedori Nikkyo, Tsuki Kaiten Nage, Tanto Hara Tsuki Kotegashi, Ushirodori Sokumen Irimi Nage, Katatedori Kotegaeshi and many, many more. The only things missing are the hakama, the judogi and ukemi. Also, all of the techniques are activated without any atemi applied.

Has anybody explore the aikido-Chin Na connections yet? Any thread here in E-Budo which discusses this?

[Amir]

The main connection is very simple : all of those techniques are applied on humans. The joint structures only invites certain locks and not others.


In addition, there was some M.A. related information flow between Japan and China. It is extremly difficult to connect this flow directly to Aikido (apparantly - there was not direct connection), but, at some much earlier points in history, some Chinese master were invited to Japa and had influence on some Jujutsu styles, and this influence may have propogated around.

I have also heard of reverse influence, of Japan on China. Making the lifes of the M.A. historions much more interesting.


Amir

[john_lord_b3]

yes, on the historical lore of various Ryuha we heard of Chinese masters visited Japan and taught martial arts such as General Iwah and Chen Yuan Ping. Also, the techniques as pictured in Koto-ryu Koppojutsu's densho looks very suspiciously "chinese" (drawn as if performed by persons wearing chinese dress, hat and the Manchu ponytail).

[Samurai Jack]

I've thought about the Tai Chi and Aikido connection. Never considered a Chi na connection directly, maybe via Aikido’s parent art then to Aikido. I tend to side more with Tai Chi principles may have influenced Aikido movements. And I am not the only one. This idea does float around on the Aikido boards. The mere thought that Ueshiba was influenced by Chinese arts does get the ire of many Aikidoka, despite its high likely-hood, then not. The Chinese arts my not have been the foundation of Aikido, or its parent, but it could explain some visual differences in movements between Aikido and Daito ryu. For those feeling the ire, it is just a theory, but a possible one. It makes for good water cooler discussion.

It is post war Aikido I am refering to when I mention Tai Chi like movements or principles seen in Aikido.

[kenkyusha]

The art most often mentioned as an influence to Ueshiba O-sensei was bagua not taiji... as one of the Aikido Journal blogs (Mr. Amdur's iirc) teased it apart, this seems somewhat beyond the probable.

Be well,
Jigme

[Flintstone]

Ellis Amdur wrote some (a lot) about this. And the connection, if any, comes far back in time. Far before Takeda Sokaku. I'll try to locate that info... but certainly the connection's not coming via O'Sensei.

[Amir]

I've thought about the Tai Chi and Aikido connection. Never considered a Chi na connection directly, maybe via Aikido’s parent art then to Aikido. I tend to side more with Tai Chi principles may have influenced Aikido movements. And I am not the only one. This idea does float around on the Aikido boards. The mere thought that Ueshiba was influenced by Chinese arts does get the ire of many Aikidoka, despite its high likely-hood, then not. The Chinese arts my not have been the foundation of Aikido, or its parent, but it could explain some visual differences in movements between Aikido and Daito ryu. For those feeling the ire, it is just a theory, but a possible one. It makes for good water cooler discussion.

It is post war Aikido I am refering to when I mention Tai Chi like movements or principles seen in Aikido.

As explained by many above. The arts Ueshiba learnt are well documented. The source of Ueshiba Aikido is very clear –Daito-ryu as Takeda taught it (I have heard some claim that technically speaking, Ueshiba Aikido should not even be considered a separate M.A. Of course, M.A. are more then a collection of techniques – the teaching methodology and spirit and the philosophy are just as important).


Throwing ideas based on identical principals, is foolish. Do not forget, most of those principals are founded on physics and biology, and those were identical in Japan, China and also other places around the world (I recall seeing drawings of old wrestling techniques which could have described Aikido).

The history part, as far as Ueshiba, is not even worth a cooler discussion. You could have discussed Aikido connection to the development of quantum theory instead (both discussions would be just as purely speculative).


Amir

[Samurai Jack]

Someone released the hounds...

To address Admirs concern...first what Ueshiba base on Aikido was other arts other then Daito ryu. Daito ryu was never considered significant foundational art for Aikido. Pranin, corrected that misconception. Today, as a result of his research, we know Daito ryu is the parent art of Aikido and not the other arts as previously thought. "Well document" can be argued.

Second, and prehaps, a Chinese art may influenced Ueshiba. No one was around him or in his head 24/7. He may have observed a Chinese art and incorporated a bit of it, prehaps. This isn't an unreasonable notion. The Japanese for centuries relied upon Chinese art, culture, thought, martial arts, and construction and design, etc. And that is well documented. Basically, I would not be suprised in the future someone like Pranin will find a possible connection and rewrite what is thought about Aikido today. Just as before. That is all I am discussing around the water cooler.

[kenkyusha]

Because there was no one keeping constant vigil on, say, Christopher Columbus, someone could conjecture that the idea of finding a quicker trade route to India by sailing west was inspired by aliens...

Ueshiba O-sensei's approach to his life and art underwent some pretty clear developmental steps- these are clear in retrospect, as are the notable influences.

Does (post-War) Aikido share some commonalities with other arts? Sure, but, what art doesn't have some parallels with something somewhere? As someone pointed-out above, the human body only moves so many ways.

A concern with this kind of wild speculation (re: an organized connection to Taiji) is that someone can (mis)read the thread, remember it later and a meme is born... don't we have enough questionable stuff circulating w/out adding to it?

Be well,
Jigme

[Samurai Jack]

I don't understand the resistance to discuss reasonable hypothetical and possibilities? I could understand such resistance if it was said Ueshiba was a Kubuki dancer, or Yakuza, a karaoke champion singer. Resistance should be put up in defense of such absurd, and non-sense. Though if such absurdity did arise they would be welcomed void resistance. Yet to say there is a possibility that Ueshiba may have seen a Chinese art or read one of the many texts on Chinese martial arts which allowed for adjustments to occur in his post war Aikido is met with arms.

Now say you have look at the moves of pre-war Aikido, very much like those of Takamuni Takeda his student Kondo. Yet when Pranin first announced Aikidos being from Daito ryu only, the hounds where released. Yet, the facts disproved a long held belief Aikido was influenced mainly by other arts other then Daito ryu.

We know Karate was birth from Chinese martial arts, and may other Japanese arts as well where influenced or directly took from Chinese martial arts at some point. Therefore, it is not so far fetched the notion Chinese martial arts principles may have helped formulate Aikido so some degree.

Look at a good Chinese martial art like Tai Chi or the arts that have Tai Chi has parented, then look at Aikido (do a Yubetube search). Look at the old vid 1960 and back of taichi or off-spring art masters. You many see there are many similarities that can be seen. Mind you the amateur is more than likely to fail to see such similarities between the Chinese arts and Aikido. They will also fail to see pre-war Aikido and Daito ryu having similarities of movements. Pre-Aikido and Post-Aikido don’t even closely resemble each art., as they look like too different arts or branches.

If what I say puts you on the all out defense, and unwilling to explore or even put up a well thought out argument. Then I would say you might consider not white knuckling the steering wheel. It might be time to step away.

Oh maybe it was Takeda Sokaku while teaching Ueshiba at some point told him of the Chinese influence upon Daito ryu, or something similar.

If I can see a resemblance between the Chinese arts and Aikido, I don’t understand why others don’t and fight so strongly to squelch the idea.

I am now going to be running for my life across the lawn away from the hounds on this one.

[P Goldsbury]

I do not think you will need to run away from any hounds on this issue. It has been debated before and turns on what is accepted as evidence. Morihei Ueshiba visited Mongolia on several occasions and it is possible that he had the time to study Chinese martial arts. However, we would need to examine the evidence. As others have noted, Ellis Amdur is one of those who has discussed the issue.

However, the question whether aikido is related to Chin Na (because both are martial arts and might embody similar principles) is different from the question whether Ueshiba himself actually studied Chinese martial arts.

The answers to both questions are speculative, in my opinion, but are different answers.

Best wishes,

[Samurai Jack]

I am glad, I can stop running from the hounds. I was half way up the fence and the hounds had me by the pants!

Agreed, I think I briefly touched on it, I agree Chin-na may not have directly influenced Aikido. In this area, it is clear that it is Daito ryu. Daito ryu though (again speculation) may have a direct Chin-na connection or influence. Once again if we look at old texts of Chin-na, by reputable authors, we can see great similarities between the two arts.

The similarities are argued by some I have read that there is only so many ways to manipulate, twist, joint lock, and alike the human body. Therefore, the similarities between the arts are coincidences. Especially if the history of Daito ryu to be a koryu is presumed to be correct, evolving from the movements of the sword. The idea there is an influence is non-sense.

I would reason there is a possibility that Chin-na may have been a mold for Daito ryu. Aikido patterning its self closely on Daito ryu would then clearly have a connection with Chin-na, though

In this case, if this where true then the connection of Aikido to Chin-na would be a second generation connection.

If we think holistically, without duality, then Aikido would have a connection to Chinese martial arts, both Chin-na and the other Chinese arts mentioned. On the other hand, if we think in terms of duality, then Chin-na has no direct influence and is separate from the other Chinese arts mentioned. Whereas, the other Chinese arts mentioned, they have a more direct influence to some degree.

I lean toward the holistic view, and speculate if Chin-na was an influence on Aikido it was possibly through Aikido's parent art. I don't think Chin-na was direct influence. If Chin-na was an influence on Aikido it was through abstract principle. I would argue that since Chin-na joint and limb manipulations are directed to do immediate harm and injury, to inflict pain, etc. they are more external applications in the same way as jujitsu.

Finally, why draw on Chin-na when Daito ryu is present. Daito ryu has a bounty of Chin-na like joint locking and manipulation. Why buy a gallon of milk when you own the cow, is my thinking.

[john_lord_b3]

I just get another Qinnashou (Chin-Na) video, this time from the Shaolin style by Master Yang. It is about 90% similar with the previous one.

Discovered another differences between Chin-Na and Aikido, other than the obvious ones such as the uniforms etc. Chin-Na has body conditioning exercises, such as certain finger calisthenics, lifting claypots with fingertips, finger push-ups etc. Aikido has no such body conditioning that I know of.

Daito-ryu and Chin-Na might have been a parallel development phenomenon with no apparent cross-influencing with each other. But, after watching Daito-ryu video and Chin-Na video in succession, I can't help but to speculate.. I mean, only Daito-ryu is known to be the Jujutsu style which focused on wrist-grab defenses. On the other side, in Chin-Na those same wrist grab defenses are the first to be taught (after the body conditioning)...

[TimothyKleinert]

I just want to clarify---Chin Na is not a style unto itself. "Chin Na" refers to a broad category of techniques, similar to the word "jujutsu". Various Chinese styles incorporate Chin Na. If there was some sort of Chinese connection with Dato-Ryu/Aikido, the researcher would have to establish which school/style Daito-Ryu/Aikido had contact with.

[Amir]

I mean, only Daito-ryu is known to be the Jujutsu style which focused on wrist-grab defenses.

Are you sure about this ?

I seem to think I have seen videos of multiple Koryu systems which has dealt with wrist grabs. It was not necessarily the focus of the system, but I am not sure it is the focus of Daito-ryu (never learned it). Further, as far as I have seen, Ueshiba Aikido has about as much focus on Shomen-Ate attacks as it has on wrist grabs.

As far as I understand, wrist grabs are of importance in Koryu due to the presence of weapons, grabbing your wrists might hamper your access to your weapon. And weapon (sword/ knife) retention and control is often very similar to some wrist grab situations.


[I am very interested in this topic since it may give me more insight about Korindo aikido - we practice wrist grabs but focus on it only at the beginners stage, afterwards we add all kinds of strikes to the repertoire, and the wrist grabs remain mostly for “pure technique practice”].

Amir