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Thread: Three year Sanchin study?

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    Default Three year Sanchin study?

    I've been contemplating an idea. Miyagi Chojun Sensei supposedly taught nothing but Sanchin for three years. Do you think it would be possible to do in this day, & age? Teach nothing but Junbi Undo, Hojo Undo, Sanchin, Waza from the other Kata, & their bunkai; along w/ kotekitaie, Kakie, etc; But no additional kata, just Sanchin? How would you go about advertising such a thing? Since it would be just an experiment, would you even charge anyone? What are your thoughts, & ideas?

    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsomers
    I've been contemplating an idea. Miyagi Chojun Sensei supposedly taught nothing but Sanchin for three years. Do you think it would be possible to do in this day, & age? Teach nothing but Junbi Undo, Hojo Undo, Sanchin, Waza from the other Kata, & their bunkai; along w/ kotekitaie, Kakie, etc; But no additional kata, just Sanchin? How would you go about advertising such a thing? Since it would be just an experiment, would you even charge anyone? What are your thoughts, & ideas?

    David

    Actually, this has been refuted by some of Miyagi's students if I remember correctly.

    There is alot in Sanchin to play with, other than just doing the kata. I've been trying to include performing Sanchin along with either some application or sanchin testing drill every class, but that takes up 15-20m at the most, I think if you spent a whole class on it, most people would either be insanely bored, insanely lost, or both.

    I do think it's easy (in my limited experience) to spend too little time on it though, so i guess it's better to err on the side of caution and go a little overboard

    The main thing as I have been taught is to integrate the principles from Sanchin into whatever you are doing.

    EDIT: Here is an interview with Seikichi Toguchi where the "3 year sanchin" thing is brought up:

    http://www.goju-ryu.info/Interviews/...5/Default.aspx
    Last edited by ZachZinn; 29th September 2007 at 23:56.
    Zachariah Zinn

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    It is possible to teach whatever the teacher wants to teach. That is why he is the teacher.

    I would just advertise it as Karate.

    Yes charge your students something otherwise they may think what you offer is of no value.
    Ed Boyd

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    The idea of Hito Kata San Nen, in my understanding, is like this, to be able to perform a Kata very well, you need at least 3 years. That doesn't mean you cannot learn anything else, including other Kata, during those 3 years. Any dilligent student of Karate with good memory usually can learn Sanchin and Gekisai Ichi together. After that, maybe Saifa and Tensho together. But that's just my opinion.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Oh, there's no doubt that somone can learn a few Kata at one time. However, that's not my question (Not trying to be smart), but I would like to get everybody's thoughts on whether, or not you guys think a student with no experience at all would be able to have the paitience to study nothing but Sanchin for three years? Do you think they would stick around, etc? I think it would be an interesting experiment.

    David

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    Many fellows lack the patience to be faithful for three years to a rich girl who owns a liquor store. So, why should they like Sanchin more?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsomers
    Oh, there's no doubt that somone can learn a few Kata at one time. However, that's not my question (Not trying to be smart), but I would like to get everybody's thoughts on whether, or not you guys think a student with no experience at all would be able to have the paitience to study nothing but Sanchin for three years? Do you think they would stick around, etc? I think it would be an interesting experiment.

    David

    Ok here's my opinion, I've been teaching less than a year so interpret it as you will.

    I think that most people would get bored with Sanchin as the only kata they learn. I've found (so far obviously) that with my very new students (ones with no previous MA experience at all) a combination of kihon, gekisai kata, (or whatever variation thereof) Sanchin and simple yakusoku kumite are a good beginner curriculum.

    Over the last year i've really begun to see the importance of Sanchin kata, but I also think students probably have to be at a certain level before they really get the importance of it, it really is integral to everything we do in Goju, but someone will not see that until they get high enough, so i try to keep whatever we do with Sanchin appropriate to the level of the people I am working with.

    On the subject though, I have really come to realize as of late that depth is much more important than breadth in kata. I will never "get" all the kata of Goju, even if I can perform them.

    So, I have not been hurrying people at all. My beginning students know Sanchin and Hookiyu (a pared down Shoreikan version of gekisai) and that's really it, i'd prefer they can do those well and start to really develop the correct posture, breathing, etc. before moving them on to Saifa, which for a beginner seems to me much more intimidating than Gekisai.

    So you can teach Sanchin without just teaching Sanchin, if you get my meaning. If you teach yakusoku kumite and make sure they are breathing correctly and keeping their spine straight, you can relate this back to Sanchin.

    I think you could keep it interesting if you do alot of partner work, if you are more of the "just do kata" mentality (not trying to degrade that approach mind you) I think people will get bored and leave.
    Zachariah Zinn

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    David,

    I think you would advertise it just like you would any other traditional Okinawa Goju ryu class, just as that traditional Okinawa Goju ryu.

    I think teaching Sanchin alone would not allow you to keep very many, if any, students in this day and age.

    However, your original post indicated: "Teach nothing but Junbi Undo, Hojo Undo, Sanchin, Waza from the other Kata, & their bunkai; along w/ kotekitaie, Kakie, etc; But no additional kata, just Sanchin?" I think that would be agreat way to structure class. I also think there is an amazing volume of material there to allow class to always have new material instructed. I think the most important thing would be you as a teacher. If you are good people will want to train with you and if you arent' they won't.

    Just my thoughts.

    Jeff
    Jeff Brown

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    Yes, I was thinking about doing Sanchin Ichi (Miyagi No Sanchin) for about a period of 9 months, w/o any of the Ibuki breathing, just technique. At 9 mo, start adding the breathing. At a year to a yr 1/2, start conducting Sanchin Shime (testing), then at a yr and 9 mo to two years, start teaching Sanchin Ni (Higashionna No Sanchin).
    All the while you would teach them Kata, w/o them knowing they are learning other Kata. Like in Gekisai, we perform Jo Dan Uke, punch, then Ge Dan Barai. Have them do that. The next thing you would teach him, would be the middle block, front kick, elbow, backfist, Ge Dan Barai, Gyaku Tsuki. Up and down the floor, with, & without a partner. However, during the three years you would not link the Kata together, just give them pieces to work on.
    That along w/ Junbi Undo, Hojo Undo, Kotekitaie, Kakie, Kumi Waza, & other drills, I think would be an excellent program. Thoughts?

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    What does your teacher think? What organization underwrites the rank and credentials you issues if any? I would ask them because there may be certain minimum expectation in regards to the syllabus you teach.
    Ed Boyd

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    I really dont think it would matter, Ed. Any org that would dictate to me that I could not do as I wish in my own Dojo, I would not want to be a part of.

    Oh, I should have mentioned, there would be no grading involved. That's another thing. Because, I dont see a way to grade somone w/ a syllabus like this, for Kyu ranks atleast. I think once the person trained this way for three years, then the third year start piecing together the sections of the Kata they previously learned, then by the time they reach the fourth year they might be able to grade for Sho Dan. Of course it depends on the individual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsomers
    I really dont think it would matter, Ed. Any org that would dictate to me that I could not do as I wish in my own Dojo, I would not want to be a part of.
    Then authentic Koryu is not for you.
    Gusta Paulo Novak

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gusta in Japan
    Then authentic Koryu is not for you.

    Then I guess it's fortunate we're not talking about Japanese Koryu arts huh? Or is that what you mean?
    Zachariah Zinn

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gusta in Japan
    Then authentic Koryu is not for you.
    Is that why you train Judo?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gusta in Japan
    Then authentic Koryu is not for you.
    It isn't so much organization as it is teachers. Organizations when ran correctly IMO are just tools for the teacher or Kaicho to disseminate their martial art. The idea is usually to maintain a minimum level of requirements. So all the Shodan should at least know X.

    Some organizations are just a place you mail a check. I don't worry about organizations either but I worry about what Sensei will think the next time he comes to my dojo and see the students.

    If your students can cross hands and perform well then you did good. If they can't fight their way out of a paper bag it is not good. If you have no students it doesn't matter. I would not teach out of my house these days. When I was 25 and had nothing it would have been OK but I am not going to expose my houshold to all the liabilty exposure. We work out at a church gym now. It is Karate. People get boo boos. I don't trust the public and the current propensity to litigate anymore.

    Teaching is like everything else. You learn by doing it. My approaches change according to who the students are and my idea of what I think is working. If progress seems to be coming slower than I expect I may try something else. Generally we teach the way we were taught.

    Excluding the jars, I'm not spending much time at all on Hoju Undo. I have too many out of shape overweight folks right now. They want to learn and they probably need Karate more than most so I do my best to bring them along. In the old days they would either sink or swim. The old dojo was hard. Some students are having trouble keeping their shoulders down and getting a good root in the kaishu kata they have learned so far. The jars filled with concrete are good. If you really like pickles the big pickle jars and Sam's Club work as a cheap alternative if. You need to like pickles, I don't want to spend much time messing with tools when most the physical development needs can be best met with bodyweight exercise and kakie. Good grip and forearm strength is a wonderful thing but its moot when faced with heart disease. In a couple of years we may be spend lots of time playing with concrete. You adjust as needed. Teaching isn't set in stone.

    Largest portion of my training is usually yakusoku kumite I am focusing on a lot of techniques out of Kururunfa this year. Last year I was teaching a lot of waza out of Seisan and Shisochin. I usually pick a kata and I focus on that for an extended time period. I don't tell anyone I just teach techniques. Chinen Sensei told me that learning kata was easy because by the time Miyazato Sensei taught him the kata he had already learned all the moves in the drills they worked. I rarely have question regarding what such and such move does because they have already worked most the waza.

    The first question any want to be teacher needs to ask themselves is why they want to teach. Is it because they want training partners or is it some other reasons. This will guide what you want to do to a great deal. The other thing is who are the students. They will dictate how you will teach to a large degree. But I think you need to teach fukyugata earlier. They are prepatory kata for a reason. You need movement to go along with all that root.

    Teach what you know. Don't ask people to do anything you can't do. Care about your people and it will be good. You learn to teach by doing it. Start with a stance then add a punch then add a Jodan or Chudan Uke. If they come back proceed next to what seems best. You learn by doing it.

    Good Luck
    Last edited by CEB; 8th October 2007 at 03:38.
    Ed Boyd

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