Joe,
I'll certainly forward anything we get on Miyake and his pro-wrestling career.
Tony
Joe,
I'll certainly forward anything we get on Miyake and his pro-wrestling career.
Tony
But how could there be "some Kodokan students" in 1881, when Kano shihan established his first dojo at Eishoji only in the following year, 1882?Originally Posted by Tony Wolf
Robert,
bearing in mind that this is just an English precis of something written in Japanese, I'm guessing that the suggestion was "Kano and some of his students, who were also the amongst the first generation of the Kodokan."
Tony
"But how could there be "some Kodokan students" in 1881, when Kano shihan established his first dojo at Eishoji only in the following year, 1882?"
It was a typo; the gent is correct.
According to the article in the 柔道大事典, in 1888 Kano and his Kodokan students went to Osaka and competed with Handa Yotaro's Tenjin Shinyo ryu jujutsu dojo.
Lance
Lance Gatling ガトリング
Tokyo 東京
Long as we're making up titles, call me 'The Duke of Earl'
Lance, thank you for the clarification. It makes much more sense now!
BTW, here is Handa Yataro:
In the H&S interview with Uenishi from 1904, the latter mentioned that he was "the champion of Osaka" before coming to London. That also very much looks like there were some type of "open" tournaments going on there before 1901.
What I also find very interesting about Uenishi, is his display of what is today called "Ushiro mawashi geri" in some styles of Karate in Apollo's (= William Bankier's) "Ju-Jitsu. What it really is. (~1904)", decades before Karate was even introduced to mainland Japan.
Best regards,
Hi Robert,Originally Posted by Robert Reinberger
that's a good point. Is anything actually known about these tournaments?
I'm picking up references to inter-scholastic judo and jiujitsu contests from 1890 onwards and at this stage I'm inclined to think that Uyenishi, who was only twenty years old when he arrived in London in 1904, might have won his Osaka championship in that form of competition. Perhaps as high-school level events they were not considered worthy of much wider attention.
Cheers,
Tony
Tony,Originally Posted by Tony Wolf
unfortunately I also have no details about that competitions as yet. But it must have been in 1901, not 1904, when Uenishi came to London.
Hi Robert,
sorry, of course I meant to say 1901!
Tony
Re-reading the 1915 American newspaper interview with Miyake, this stood out:
"I began to practice as a child, and entered competition when 16 years old. At 19 I had won the championship in the Osaka style, and received the belt from the jiu-jitsu institution."
I'm reading this as further evidence of the inter-scholastic competitions, mostly in that I can't picture a nineteen-year old winning an open jiujitsu championship against older and more experienced competitors.
What belt from which "ju-jitsu institution"? I've found scattered references to Miyake having been awarded a certificate by Jigoro Kano, but nothing conclusive.
Joe wrote:
"(Miyake) was born in Okayama City in 1882, and apparently started training in Fusen-ryu under either (or both) Manauemon or Torajiro Tanabe."
Another Fusen-ryu/Handa dojo connection ...
Tony
Lance,Originally Posted by Lance Gatling
Have you been able to find any other more comprehensive references which relate Handa Yotaro to Tenjin Shinyo-ryu?
He's not listed on the Tenjin Shinyo-ryu Keizu which kind of raises an eyebrow. I must have checked about half a dozen books by now, including Yamada's book.
No, actually everything else seems to point to Daitoryu, an offshoot of Sekiguchi ryu.Originally Posted by Steve Delaney
Am going to check Kano's writings and some judo refs when have chance, but most don't have indices, really tough to find isolated incidents like this. Will also check some judo researcher buds.
Lance
Lance Gatling ガトリング
Tokyo 東京
Long as we're making up titles, call me 'The Duke of Earl'
A correspondent over on JudoForum offers the following re. inter-scholastic judo/jiujitsu competitions:
---------------------------------
1874 Keio Univ. started jujutsu
1882 Keio invited Sekiguchi Ryu
1883 Judo lectures started at Gakushuin
1885 Tokyo Univ. started Tenjin Shinyo Ryu
1887 Tokyo Univ. built judo dojo, Saigo to teach, later taken over by Tomita
1889 Keio to invite Yamashita as judo Shihan
1890 No1 highschool to make judo club
1891 No5 highschool to welcome Jigoro Kano as school master, Kimotsuke as judo instructor
1891 No1 highschool loses to Gakushuin in judo match
1893 No2 highschool made judo club
1893 Isogai appointed to No3 highschool as judo instructor
1894 Tokyo Teachers School to have judo dojo
1895 Sakujiro Yokoyama to become Shihan at No1 highschool
1898 Judo match between No1 and No2 highschool
1899 No1 highschool against No2
1900 Mitsuyo Maeda to teach at No1 highschool
1901 No3 highschool against Kanazawa Medical school
1902 No3 highschool against Keio Univ.
1906 No1 highschool against Tokyo Teachers school
1907 No4 against No6
1908 No6 against Kobe highschool of commerce
1909 No3 against No6
1910 No5 against No7
1910 No1 against No2
1910 Both Kanemitsu and Oda were born, later to become Kosen judo gurus
1911 Kodokan banned Ashi Garami
For your ref, numbered-highschools were upgraded to today`s universities.
No1 = Tokyo University
No2 = Tohoku University
No3 = Kyoto University
No4 = Kanazawa University
No5 = Kumamoto University
No6=Okayama University
No7 = Kagoshima University
---------------------------
I'll be very interested to discover the rules that governed these types of tournaments. My intuition is that, like the later KOSEN competition format, they outlawed atemi-waza and encouraged/mandated ne-waza.
Tony
Aye, exactly my findings too.Originally Posted by Lance Gatling
"
What I also find very interesting about Uenishi, is his display of what is today called "Ushiro mawashi geri" in some styles of Karate in Apollo's (= William Bankier's) "Ju-Jitsu. What it really is. (~1904)", decades before Karate was even introduced to mainland Japan.
"
I reckon there's very little new under the sun; plenty of koryu jujutsu styles had and have some multiple kicks from different angles, using different portions of foot / leg / shin / knee, either leading up to or finishing a throw or lock.
Lance
Lance Gatling ガトリング
Tokyo 東京
Long as we're making up titles, call me 'The Duke of Earl'
Of course they have. It was the specific type of this Ashiate (Keri-) waza that caught my attention, as to me it has a more "modern", or "sports-like" feeling, or at least a feeling of an art, where kicks play a more important role than in the traditional Jujutsu I've seen. I also think that while it can be done, it is not the first technique of choice if one wears hakama. Additionally, I don't think that anything similar can be found in the Kodokan Ate waza syllabus. If it can (or could) be found in any of the Koryu Jujutsu styles? I dont know, but I don't remember to have seen it as yet.Originally Posted by Lance Gatling
However, compared to the more rudimentary forms of even Tegatana-ate (or Shuto uchi) and other basic hand-techniques displayed by the Japanese pioneers of the art in the west, I find this technique noteworthy.
Best regards,
Last edited by Robert Reinberger; 12th October 2007 at 06:25.