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Thread: Tantodori

  1. #1
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    Default Tantodori

    A commentary on my study.
    Aikido and Tantodori

  2. #2
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    Osu,
    Nicely said. Couldn't agree more.
    I have been in FMA for 30 years now. Just spent a weekend with Inosanto. Took a fellow Aikidoka with me.
    See our article in November 2004 Black Belt Magazine on Aikido defense against the 5 angles.
    Again, compliments and appreciation.
    Rei, Domo.
    Until again,
    Lynn Seiser PhD MFT
    Yondan Aikido
    Lucaylucay Kali/JKD
    Mugai-ryu Iaido

    "We do not rsie to the level of our expecations. We fall to the level of our training." Now, get back to your training. KWATZ!

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    Is that available online? I would like to read that.

  4. #4
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    So what do you think should be done with Aikido's tantodori, then? I think it is fair to criticize the way we approach the knife in Aikido. 1st kyu tantodori will not save you in the lunch line at the state pen. But what should we do with Aikido that doesn't involve throwing any babies out with the bathwater? Can we reconcile our angst over Aikido's effectiveness without changing it into something that isn't Aikido?

    I've been doing some cross-training lately in a couple of different systems. Only for a few months, so my opinions are by no means expert.

    First thing about the attacks we study in Aikido is, I don't think they are actually as laughable as all Aikidoka immediately think when we have our first chat with an FMA acquaintance at a backyard BBQ with a ketchup-smeared plastic knife. These are attacks that are performed in an open confrontation, as on a battlefield, by an opponent who is full of adrenaline and fear and is willing to cross a bit of ground to try to end you in one motion. Turns out this is exactly the kind of attacker Krav Maga is concerned with, and from what I've been able to glean, the MCMAP as well. So what do these systems teach? Well, Krav Maga teaches a block to the knife arm and a simultaneous strike to a vital area. This is exactly how I've been taught to enter when attacked along the yokomen angle in Aikido, but I've been trained to do a softer block that will let me read and control the attacker (I have my doubts about being able to being able to reliably damage the knife hand with a hard block anyway, and I firmly believe that relaxed will always beat tense, though its harder to do).

    My point up there is this. 75% of traditional martial artists are going to thumb their noses at the modern close-quarter combative systems, but these systems were developed using western scientific principals and are the product of a lot of serious research by results-oriented people. If what we do in our hakama bears more than a passing resemblance to what the commando-pants wearing professionals have come up with, it can't be THAT bad. I think it should be easy and enjoyable to extend your tanto-dori training to the 9 angle template you posted in your article. Play around and increase the intensity carefully and see what works. Maybe get a foam knife that you can chalk.

    Now I think there are two more steps to this game here that are obvious. Despite the fact that KM and the Marines teach techniques to deal with the same type of aggressor as we have in Aikido, we can't get rid of that nagging thought that a real knife attack might be by somebody who really knows how to use a knife to kill a person, and is skilled. Or someone who has both their weapon and their intention hidden until they are very close. Some combination of relaxed, sneaky, and knowledgeable.

    Studying FMA really opens up a whole world in regards to that. I study Sayoc Kali a bit and we don't even really have a set of attack angles, just vital targets. Given a sharp enough knife, it doesn't require a lot of force to open most of these targets, though you may need to open two ribs or get through the breastbone. It is rather frightening to see how easy it is to deploy and strike with a blade from a concealed position.

    I am not clear where Aikido goes against a skilled knife-wielding opponent. He's as relaxed as you are, he conceals his intention to attack very well, he does not commit himself much to any attack, and he seems to have a response to you no matter what you do.

    As Aikidoka, what we should be training for is the ability to sense and control our opponent's intention to attack. it gets very interesting when you play with an uke whose intention is a tree that spans several moves and counter-moves. Japanese martial arts teach one strike one kill. If you've got one thing you are going to do, you should be able to beat someone who has ten things that they might do, but it is like it boils down to a psychic battle. I haven't figured out how to set up a training situation where I can really explore this thought yet, though.

    I am not sure if FMA can be "brought in" to Aikido or anything like that. it is a family of principles-based systems and I am not sure it goes in the same direction as Aikido. It'll be years before I really know for sure, but at the low levels it seems to address the knife rather than the attacker, and it looks like the worldview is more fencing than kenjutsu - seems like the way think of combat is that it is a flow of connected events, and you train to be ahead of your opponent in the flow, taking the offensive and putting them on the defensive.

    What I like about Aikido, and what I think is a superior combative (as well as non-combative) mindset, is that the outcome of combat is already known, so you can skip all of the intervening moments and just get in there and cut your opponent down. or make the combat never have happened in the first place, or the argument with your wife, or whatever.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Judge
    I am not clear where Aikido goes against a skilled knife-wielding opponent. He's as relaxed as you are, he conceals his intention to attack very well, he does not commit himself much to any attack, and he seems to have a response to you no matter what you do.

    The key in all martial arts is to be suffciently better then the other guy. I doubt FMA have a different asnwer then the above. Given a knife, which provides the attacker with a huge advantage, the defender skill must be significantly higher.

    The few Koryu Kata I have learnt always taught one must be ready for his technique to fail, and at that point (actually, just as the situation emarges), flow to a different attack based on the new situation. This concept is different then the "tree" concept you present, since it does not limit your responces to the developing situation to a predefind set (on the other hand, it requires better skill).
    Aikido (at least the way I am learning it) is built to face such attacks, one should control the fight and limit Uke possibilities of response. In some way, one should be able to "invite Uke to a specific attack" and respond accordingly. Part of the "invitation" is making Uke feel this will be his killing stroke, and thus encouraging him to commit to it.

    I do not claim this is easy, on the contrary, to do that, your skill must be on a much higher level then Uke.


    Facing an armed attacker when you are unarmed is a very dangerous and low precentage situation in general.
    Facing an unarmed skilled attacker is rather similar to the above. No M.A. can promise you to succeed unless you are much better (an even then, luck and other parametrs will play a role).
    Facing a skilled armed attacker is exremly dangerous, getting out unscathed is extremly unlkikely even if you are better.
    The M.A. one practices is not as important, since this holds true for all M.A. regardless of origin. Aikido is not an exception!!!


    Amir
    Amir Krause

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    Default Techniques

    I was taught knife fighting when I was young by my father. He had no real MA experince but military. Most of the disarming techniques would not work with the way I fight (upward hand cuts and slashes to you bleed out). Some of the disarms would seem to work on an untrained fighter though.

    Cory Covert

    Moderator's Edit: Please sign all your posts with your full name. You agreed to do this when you first became a member of E-Budo.
    Last edited by P Goldsbury; 15th October 2007 at 03:57. Reason: Name Rule

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