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  1. #1
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    Default Training weapons - wood varieties & maintenance

    Whats the definition of ironwood? Does anyone know if bubinga would be considered an ironwood?

    Kind regards,
    Jeremy Hagop

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    Ironwood is probably best defined as "the toughest damned wood in the area".

    So around here you get Ironwood that is Ostrya virginiana American Hophornbeam or Carpinus caroliniana, American Hornbeam, which one of my students used to call "muscle Beech". It's a very dense, white wood that is hard to put nails into, and has a grain that can go just about anywhere. Needless to say it's not a commercial lumber.

    In the Sonoran desert you'll get Olneya tesota which apparently grows there and nowhere else. It is truly a wood I'd call "iron". Along with snakewood it doesn't even sound like wood when you knock on it, more like pig iron, it almost rings. X-Pen-Sieve.

    The list goes on and on, there's one on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironwood

    One ironwood I use a lot is Ipe, Tabebuia sp. which is a Central and South American wood of various species. Very tough stuff, used a lot for underwater pilings since it doesn't rot very easily.

    Lignum vitae is called ironwood, not much available any more I'm afraid, since it is now CITES listed (as in "do not cut/trade/use this stuff") although it was never my favourite wood to use for weapons. Too heavy and tends to do what it wants to do, I've still got a little bit of it that's been drying in my shop for a decade as well as a couple of bokuto that would make great suburito but have checks in them... one of the more irritating properties of the wood.

    Some of the European Olives are called ironwood, and I've seen some olive that is indeed pretty hard.

    I don't speak Spanish but I always suspected the Bolivian wood Pau Ferro Caesalpinia echinata translates as "ironwood". It's a great looking wood that's also become scarce lately.

    While some of these woods are really difficult to dent, and incredibly dense, they can also be very brittle and prone to snapping in half.

    Now, as for Bubinga, or "African Rosewood" there's several species that are sold as such, with the most common being Guibortia africana I've never heard it called Ironwood but I have no doubt it is somewhere. It's a fairly hard wood, very pretty too, and must have that musical tone since I've hard that Japanese taiko are made of it now since the original wood stock is long gone.

    Hope that helps some

    Kim "old sawdust magnet" Taylor
    sdksupplies.com

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    Thank you for your answer Mr. Taylor. Would you know if the commonly used "janka scale" is an appropriate way to find out what type of wood is suited best for weapons?

    Kind Regards,
    Jeremy Hagop

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    Hardness is one measure that may help pick a wood for weapons, but one has to realize that there are other factors involved. Hardness may also imply brittleness, just as in steel, so a wood that is very hard may also tend to break or, more usually, splinter more easily than a softer wood which will deform when dented rather than break.

    Wood is not homogeneous so some parts may be hard while others may actually be absent. For instance on the Janka scale locust is quite a bit higher than oak or maple, but locust has a very large pore structure so the hard parts may crush into the pores and splinter. Red oak vs white oak (filled pores) is another example of this effect.

    Flexibility can play a part, ash is very light and not very hard, but because of the way the fibers run, it's very tough, not likely to break on a large side impact, even though it may dent.

    Cross-linking of fibers is also important, I tried Ramin several years ago, very straight grain, very nice long fibers, decent weight and hardness, but it split from tip to butt. This may just have been this one piece, but I never bothered to try it again.

    Grain is important, a very hard wood with wonky grain may break on being dropped onto the floor. Bokuto from the same plank can act quite differently depending on grain, how the wood was dried, and sapwood/hardwood transitions. Osage orange has great hardness and deformation numbers and is known as a great weapon wood, but it's not a commercial lumber so getting clear planks (without knots and wonky grain) is tough. It's also not usually dried very consistently so can spring in unpredictable ways when cutting, the last piece I cut locked up the sawblade and stalled the motor, thankfully it didn't kick back. All in all not a pleasant wood to work with. It's very stiff and can tear out easily when machining. But it will knock the bejeepers out of lesser woods.

    Even fungal growth can surprise you. Purpleheart is a wood that is very consistent and great for weapons but there's a fungus that actually eats across the grain, you don't see it until the wood is finished somewhat, the signs are quite subtle but if you tap that piece on the floor it will snap in two. Very strange and luckily not too common but I have to keep an eye out for it.

    Pinworm/powder-post beetles can riddle hickory with holes, again making a very tough wood into something useless for weapons. These things are the "rust" of wood.

    Hardness can also mean heaviness, you'll notice that most of the harder woods are also very heavy which isn't always the benefit you might think when using weapons in partner practice.

    Price is also a definite consideration, all wood weapons eventually break down when used for contact so it doesn't make a lot of sense to be spending hundreds of dollars on rare, endangered and exotic species if you're just going to pound them to pieces.

    Beauty comes into play, as well as the feel of the wood. Hickory is a bit shaggy and not pretty but tough. Cocobolo can be finished so smooth it is in danger of slipping out of your hands.

    A named wood can be several species, for instance Ipe or Hickory are usually sold as a set of species. Hickory can even include Pecan which I personally like a lot for a bokuto, it is less stiff than the "impact/select grade" that folks talk about which is really just sorting through and picking out the Shagbark which is the hardest of the hickorys. Shagbark is indeed more dent resistant and heavier than the other hickorys, but it gives you quite a bit more shock in the hands than does pecan, and I've found that it can even bruise your palms, whereas a softer hickory will dull the impact a bit.

    How you/your art uses the weapons makes a difference too. Some schools seem to swing for the other guy's sword, while others swing for the person. Baseball bats won't last long if you swing them against each other or against a telephone pole but even a pine bokuto would likely last a fairly long time doing something like jodo if you were practicing properly. I should try that some time actually.

    So lots of things to consider and as with everything, a balance is needed, there isn't a single wood that's best for everyone.

    Dent resistance, crush resistance, shear resistance, load resistance, all good things, but moderated by weight, grain, looks, price, etc. etc.

    Here's a good starting point for considering woods for any use http://www.freeinfosociety.com/pdfs/...26eaeb3dc0e3fa

    Kim Taylor

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    Thank you once again for taking your time to answer my questions. It has been muchly appreciated. One last question, I have opted to go with escrima sticks made of Bubinga. We do some paired contact practise in my class with double escrima sticks. How do you think the Bubinga will hold up? Also, theoretically speaking, if one were to use a escrima stick made of Bubinga to hit someone across the head, would the stick break?

    Kind Regards,
    Jeremy Hagop

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    I'm not the one to ask about breaking sticks I'm afraid Jeremy, I've broken just about everything at one point or another, including a bubinga bokuto a few years ago. I don't think there's anything wood that can't be broken.

    That said, a clear piece of bubinga should be fairly tough, but I think it's got shorter fibers than something like hickory so should be a bit more likely to snap in half rather than split.

    I have the same problem with a lot of the ebonies actually, prone to snap.

    Another thing to consider is what you're matching it with, a super hard and heavy stick will pound a lighter one pretty badly.

    I won't even hazard a guess as to whether a skull or a bubinga stick would break first but I'm fairly certain that if you broke the bubinga on someone's head you'd have other things to worry about than the expense of the stick.

    Don't know if that helps or not...

    Kim Taylor

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    Default Training weapons - wood varieties & maintenance

    I recently have been restoring a few old gun stocks and found out about a trick in which you use a steam iron to force water into dents, swelling them back out. I am currently interested in WW2 infantry weapons and picked up a nice German 98K rifle and thus, learned about this trick. I am leaving the natural patina, just removing a few dents. As long as the wood is not broken in the dent, they come out nicey.

    So, I thought that maybe the Japanese may have used such a technique on staff weapons, bokuto, saya, etc. But, I thought that it might make the area weak. Anyone have any info?

    Also been using something called Howards feed and wax which contains bees wax and orange oil.
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

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    Have read about a couple of guys that used steam to straighten warped bo, jo, etc., but never have heard about steaming out specific dents.

    Did your steaming discolor the patina or the (presumably) oiled stock?

    Most dents don't hurt the functionality of wooden weapons. Biggest problem is if broken fibers at the edge of the dent create a danger of snagging flesh where sliding (as in bo, jo, wooden kusarigama, etc.) or by accident. Usually if shallow those are beveled off to blend back in; if too deep, retire the thing, they're expendable. (I have one colleague at jodo who's been nursing a cracked 20 yr old tachi for months, one of the days I'm going to 'accidentally' break it to get rid of it for him, he can't bring himself to do it.)

    There're reasons that most Japanese wooden weapons use white Japanese oak; it's strong, dents rather than crushes, and splinters yet stays intact, while red oak and other woods tend to break cleanly, with danger of sharp splinters flying about. Most dojo I know won't even let a red oak weapon on the floor, which is probably over the top but there you are.

    I always assumed my last wooden-stocked US military rifle, the M-14, was oak but don't know, was impossible to tell under the oil and grime. It certainly wasn't beautiful walnut, but it was tough as iron. I beat the hell out of it without serious damage. Got any idea what wood Mauser used?
    Lance Gatling ガトリング
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    Long as we're making up titles, call me 'The Duke of Earl'

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    Steaming does lighten the wood, but after oiling it looks very good. The steaming cleans out the oil and gunk I think.

    Mauser and the other contractors used a lot of walnut before the war and into the war. Mid war to late war they started to use a laminate. I think elm was used a bit too.
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

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    Anything beyond this, I'd recommend you start with Kim Taylor, who seems to know a lot about the subject and shares.

    email kataylor@sdksupplies.com

    Cheers, ............
    Lance Gatling ガトリング
    Tokyo 東京

    Long as we're making up titles, call me 'The Duke of Earl'

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    Hi,

    Kim is also a member here.
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

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    Default Hazel suitable for staff?

    Hello,
    I'm hoping someone can answer this.
    Is Hazel a suitable wood for a short stick? This will be around 2 feet (60cm) long and will be in contact with a standard oak Bo.
    regards
    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul browne View Post
    Hello,
    I'm hoping someone can answer this.
    Is Hazel a suitable wood for a short stick? This will be around 2 feet (60cm) long and will be in contact with a standard oak Bo.
    regards
    Paul
    It'll cost you about $0.35 to find out....

    Unusual choice - why hazel? AFAIK not a big choice for impact use. Oak, hickory, etc. are more typical.

    But against a bo you're probably not taking a full blow, but rather a glancing deflection. Training striking focus?

    If you don't want a dented bo, try something softer than the bo, which is presumably oak? Then pine, etc., also cheap.
    Lance Gatling ガトリング
    Tokyo 東京

    Long as we're making up titles, call me 'The Duke of Earl'

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    In UK, try oak or blackthorn. Hazel is the preferred wood for magic wands, but it's too light for quarterstaves. See http://qstaffman.blogspot.com .

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    Gentlemen
    Thanks for taking the time to reply,
    Actually it's because I saw an advert on Ebay for a 'cudgel' made from hazel.
    It bears a great resemblance to a standard Nyoi, one of the instruments of defence used in the art I practice Shorinji Kempo.(We don't use weapons )
    Regards
    Paul

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