Yamabushi Ryu

[Mark Murray]

Well what seems a bit strange to me to begin with is that the comments of Mr. Williams seem to have been supported by one of the mods on this thread. To me this is quite disturbing.

First, a correction. The only moderator on this thread is Mark F. Feigenbaum. People like me (a moderator, but on another forum) have no powers here in this forum at all. We are, essentially, like other people, who also have opinions. As for support, did you ask that moderator if he truly supported what you perceived as coming from Mr. Williams? In other words, are you elaborating on what something "seems like" rather than on what is true?

Now maybe James Williams will come back on what he wrote saying that this is not what he meant and this could very well be. But the fact of the matter is that even if it was not his intent to challenge Tom it was badly written to begin with and lead many others to think the same thing.

We all write badly at some point or another. We all have bad days. We all let emotions cloud our writing at some point. I don't know Mr. Williams, so I really can't say how the post was intended. And I let the forum admins decide that (Which was Mr. Goldsbury and is now Mr. Feigenbaum).

And even if it was not a challenge I feel that the whole let me show my Budo and show me yours type of a deal also screams of bad taste and would never be accepted in any respectable Dojo in or outside Japan since this type of quarrelling is just not acceptable especially saying that he wanted to go to Tom’s Dojo etc…

Huh? So, if it's not a challenge, what's wrong with the I'll show you mine if you show me yours? I've specifically gone to other seminars just to see other styles. I've gone to meet people who were labelled, well irritating is a mild representation, but turned out to be great people. What's written is never the same as what's reality.

I've said it before. Whatever emotion that a reader gets from reading words on a screen comes 100%, completely from the reader and 0% percent from the writer. Words on a screen are nothing more than electrons and convey no emotion. All emotion is created from the reader.

Stuff like this can only be important to individuals like James Williams who created their OWN SELF MADE ancestral tradition this is as bad as any other person that has done so in the past and that have been passed trough the baffling budo.

I didn't see any fake histories created from the website. I saw no grandmaster sokes on the website. I saw no deceiving attributes on the website. Nothing that ties it with other baffling/bad budo at all.

IMO,
Mark

[Jeff Cook]

I just thought I would repeat what Mr. Williams posted:

"Peter I hope that you don't mind this post. I am not an aikidoka and have a much different outlook and prime directive."

Why would he question anyone minding it, and make a reference/comparison to aikidoka, if his intentions were purely benign? Following his "time to put up" comment with this remark seems rather....blatant.

Note: I am not questioning the moderation of the thread; I am openly questioning a comment made in an open forum.

Jeff Cook

[Maro]

It's quite a serious thing to say and it's not about questioning the Moderator's decision. Going to a Seminar to compare styles is a lot different to typing that on an open forum.

There are at least 4 people that have read it the "wrong" way. More than a coincidence I'd say.

[P Goldsbury]

I just thought I would repeat what Mr. Williams posted:

"Peter I hope that you don't mind this post. I am not an aikidoka and have a much different outlook and prime directive."

Why would he question anyone minding it, and make a reference/comparison to aikidoka, if his intentions were purely benign? Following his "time to put up" comment with this remark seems rather....blatant.

Note: I am not questioning the moderation of the thread; I am openly questioning a comment made in an open forum.

Jeff Cook

There has also been a private correspondence between Mr Williams and myself about this thread (as a moderator of E-Budo, I often have such correspondence). This is probably one reason why, though it is made in the forum, the last remark is addressed to me. I did not jump to any conclusions about his intentions in referring to me as an aikidoka. I was also given the option of editing Mr Williams' post if I chose. Since I intended to move the thread from Baffling Budo to another forum, I chose not to.

Best wishes,

[Josh Reyer]

I believe James Williams meant his post very much as a challenge. A bit ridiculous to take it as a challenge to a duel, though, reference to Musashi notwithstanding.

[Jeff Cook]

I certainly didn't take it has a challenge to dueling with katana's before sun-up in the graveyard!

Peter, I am glad he has clarified to you in personal correspondence. It would certainly be classy though if he cleared up the misunderstanding with the guy his post was directed towards. Especially since his post was public and has left an impression with a number of people, who have not even posted here (yes, I too receive PM's ) that his post appears to be calling the target of his ire out on the mat for a little rough-and-tumble "corrective conversation."

Perception is reality, and I am afraid your friend is suffering, rightly or wrongly, from a negative perception he has left with many. I am ONLY being blunt here because YOU are an honorable and respectable man, and you believe his intentions are pure. Otherwise I would just chalk this up to another ego-maniac with his panties in a wad, angry because he got caught with his panties around his ankles. More importantly, your friend may have left himself legally vulnerable with his public statements. He is currently visiting a country that is quite sensitive to the appearance of threatened violence, and in this case it is directed at someone who actually lives in that country. I suggest he clarify this publicly, to cover his butt.

Please don't think this is an attack on you or him; I am only pointing out how this appears, before this escalates. It is noble of you to defend his intentions; he would best serve you as a friend - and himself - if he himself would clarify this.

Jeff Cook

[gcarson]

Well,

I accept that my personal perspective on what 'Budo' is and how it should be practiced doesn't jive with everyone's, and maybe I am out in left field on this issue, however....

Tom said (in post #18)

" if James williams had any tangible or concrete knowledge of Japanese tradition or Koryu Bujutsu, he would of corrected all this goofy crap "

To me, that says "If he doesn't do things the way I would, his doesn't know anything and is completely ignorant/without skill". There are several other things along these lines as well.

So when James says 'put up or shut up' everyone gets their panties in a bunch??

Well if you want to question a website content or accuracy, thats fine. But when you start attacking someone (who was a guest not the owner I might add) without any provocation from that person, should you not expect a similar responce?

I personally am happy to see someone say :
If you think I suck and know nothing, then show me how much you know/can do so that I have a way to quantify what you base your opinion on.

It came off as calling him on the mats....well good. I'm tired of the endless list of people who will slander and verbally hammer people on forums but never step up from behind their keyboards when they have the chance to do so.

Some people have a more 'aggresive' take on what Budo spirit is....I guess its a matter of what percentage you put into Bu and what into Do. But no one owns "THE" right way of it.....and the condescending comments about 'proper' or 'real' budo aren't necessary. If you think his physical practice sucks, step up and show him. If you just disagree with his philosophy, well, thats pretty academic since there is no established, accepted 'right' way...

[Jeff Cook]

Well, yet again we have "questions about something questionable" - which ebudo is well-known to be available for - being labeled as an "attack" on the person being asked.

Yet obviously some of the questions served a valuable purpose, as evidenced by a website being changed.

A perception has been created. Hand-wringing, spin, and counter-accusations as to the imagined motives of the questioner certainly are not going to change that perception.

If Mr. Williams has been slandered as stated in the above post, that certainly is NOT excusable, and should definitely be addressed. "Slander" has a distinct legal definition. Slander is illegal. It seems that a poster or two has been accused of violating civil law. What untruthful statements were made? Those certainly should be addressed, and furthermore, if someone has made untruthful statements they should probably be banned from this board, as that is a clear and serious violation of the terms of use.

I can only find opinions here though - not statements of fact, except for those statements of fact that caused a website to be changed, and thus improved through the correction of some errors.

If someone has been incorrectly called a "slanderer" here, that in itself could be considered slander, and is a violation of this board's rules also. Not only that, but owners of boards that allowed slander to occur and stand visible to the public have been successfully sued. It just keeps getting better and better....

Greg, in a way I DO agree with much of your post above. We all have a tendency to defend when we are questioned in a hostile way, and I DO think some of the questions have been presented in a way that has not been very conducive to a peaceful and reasonable discourse. Naturally, the responses to those hostile inquiries and subsequent hostile responses are just going to continue to snowball and escalate, and then a mess is created.

Hopefully someone will just close the damn thread since this has progressed past the point of being able to be effectively moderated.

Jeff Cook

[gcarson]

Well, yet again we have "questions about something questionable" - which ebudo is well-known to be available for - being labeled as an "attack" on the person being asked.

Sorry Jeff but that is not what I said. Tom was originally asking about the Yamabushi-Ryu website, but then suddenly swerved sideways and launched several unpleasant attacks on Mr.Williams and his training, which then became the focus somehow. Considering that the website in question and the dojo related to it are not part of Mr.Williams school or association, I am labelling the first question a question....and all the attacks as exactly that.

By all means, the original site had its flaws, and they have been addressed...yay for e-budo! BUT...the band wagon of flaming Williams was more than unnecessary and harsh. It is however an online forum so I expect some of that. But then he defends himself and offers a face->face resolution to his most vocal critic and everyone screams bloody murder.

To the Original Focus of the thread :
ANYONE outside of the priesthood of Shugendo using the term Yamabushi - I don't like it and consider it to be in poor taste. The other 'cosmetic' aspects were not an issue to me. Obviously if things are not being presented honestly, that is an issue, but that didn't seem to clearly be the case.

With that said, I agree with your final statement Jeff. The thread is mostly dead in regards to its original topic. Perhaps if Mr.Williams is considered bad/baffling budo by some, they should start a thread with him as the focus and list their concerns.

[Jeff Cook]

Greg, I don't have a dog in this yamabushi fight, whatever it is about. I could care less. I am reading this as someone who is not familiar with anything or anybody mentioned here. The thread is confusing. I am only addressing what appears to be a challenge, and I thought I was doing a reasonable thing by politely pointing out what the perception is, in the hope that something would be done to correct that perception.

Tom did not "swerve sideways;" Tom, the apparent target of most of the ire here (perhaps I have misread that as well), was not the one who brought up Mr. Williams. Somebody else brought him up. Apparently there is some sort of relationship or tie-in to Yamabushi; it is hard to tell from this rather contentious and contorted thread. But after someone ELSE brought it up, Tom started asking questions about him too. I would say that is normal thread drift, not some attempt to take one questionable situation to try to smear somebody totally unrelated to it.

What exactly IS the relationship between yamabushi and Mr. Williams (a rhetorical question at this point - please don't answer)? If there is none, then why the hell hasn't someone clearly stated that, stick to that message, and be done with this nonsense? And if there has been another issue brought up (i.e. whatever the questions are about Mr. Williams), instead of suggesting to a member in a rather petulant way (not you Greg) to start a new topic about Mr. Williams, the moderators can use the thread-splitting function and handle it themselves! But they obviously don't want THAT to happen, for some reason....

Also, since the moderators seem to be strenuously objecting to questions being asked about Mr. Williams (the only rational reason I can think of for them not splitting the thread), then why did they not lock the damn thread down before allowing it to get to this point??? Is it because they are afraid of the appearance of favoritism? I really don't know and I am reluctant to make that accusation, but it would be nice for ALL involved, including Mr. Williams, if a moderator would just sack-up and take action, in a way that does not make the situation worse than it already is!

Let me be perfectly blunt, since my previous suggestions have not been taken as being very polite anyway. Peter, I unfortunately have changed my mind about the moderation of this thread. It sucks. For God's sake, will SOMEBODY take the high-road and try to clear up this mess, or at the very least, shut down the thread before these good people are embarrassed further?

I hope everyone is having a good weekend.

Jeff Cook

[Woody]

Let me be perfectly blunt, since my previous suggestions have not been taken as being very polite anyway. Peter, I unfortunately have changed my mind about the moderation of this thread. It sucks. For God's sake, will SOMEBODY take the high-road and try to clear up this mess, or at the very least, shut down the thread before these good people are embarrassed further?

I hope everyone is having a good weekend.

Jeff Cook

Hello Jeff,
If you want a thread to die, just let it go peacefully into the night.
Hope your weekend is well also.

[Josh Reyer]

What mess? Mr. Cook, four of the last nine posts have been by yourself. I don't really see the issue here. Mr. Williams obviously stands by his comments. Mr. Karazosis has made his response. Some feel Mr. Williams was over the top. Others feel they were appropriate to Mr. Karazosis's comments. You apparently feel one way, but the people in charge here feel differently. End of story.

[MarkF]

You're right, Jeff, moderation does suck and I take responsability for it. I have to remember to leave word in admin.. when I am not going to be around for a while, but I didn't this time.

The person who posted the topic post asked to have this moved right off, and it should have been. If you would rather do this, start another thread there, but I will not saddle another mod with an out-of-hand thread.

If you want to open another thread to discuss this matter here, please feel free, but try to moderate yourselves. It doesn't take much to put a thread such as this back on the straight and narrow. If y'll wish, you may open one in baffling budo, too.

Thanks for taking note of where this thread was heading.


Mark