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Thread: Soto uke zuki vs uchi age zuki

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    Question Soto uke zuki vs uchi age zuki

    Gassho

    Soto uke zuki, gyaku soto uke deflects gyaku zuki jodan attack to side and jun kagi zuki finishes the deal.

    Uchi age zuki, gyaku uchi age deflects gyaku zuki jodan attack upwards and jun zuki finishes.

    So why, if soto uke zuki is represented in ten chi ken dai ichi accurately, does the tokuhon state that uchi age tzuki, when performed in ten chi ken dai ni, is finished with kagi zuki?

    It makes no sense to me, I've always felt that "san" of ten chi ken dai ni is jun zuki because the distance and "kyo" offered are right for jun zuki to mai/yoko sammai

    Kesshu
    A man with small testes should never get involved in a fight requiring cojones

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    Speak English, eh?
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

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    Sochin, this is a Shorinji Kempo forum. Ade is speaking Shorinji Kempish, our lingua franca.

    A worthy question, Ade, to which I don't by any means feel that I have The Answer, but I can offer some theoretical arguments. Your question comes at a good time for me to consider, since I'm practicing Tenchi Ken 2 sotai for testing in a couple of weeks.

    I'm surprised to hear you say that the distance for uchi-age zuki is right for hitting mae-zanmai. I find that the ma'ai for Tenchi Ken 2 in general is very close: not only is it a lot of punching up till the ni-o uke + kick, but the very first strike is a furi zuki (which has a short range). When you do the uchi-age, what's your tai-sabaki? Do you sway back a bit, or just go down & forward as you cock for the counterstrike? I do the latter, which I believe is correct, and it puts me really close to my partner. If partner has extended properly on jun-zuki, their sanmai should be turned away.

    This brings me to the kagi/jun zuki thing. I actually learned, long ago as a beginner, that the counterpunch (after uchi age) has a tate-ken (vertical fist) instead of a yoko kagi zuki, but since then I have been taught otherwise.

    Could it be that we're just supposed to learn options? That's what I'm taking from this. We tend to learn—or think we're learning—a single correct reponse to a given attack, but really we're supposed to become more flexible than that.

    Looking forward to the other responses.

    Colin May
    Bellevue (next to Seattle), U.S.A.
    Shorinji Kempo Seattle Branch

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    Question The question is

    Gassho

    Both soto and uchi age zuki are done from tai gamae, with gyaku zuki jodan attack.

    Ten-chi-ken dai ni so tai is from hiraki gamae and the attack is jun zuki jodan, which is far closer mai-ai and would be in range of kagi zuki.

    My question is not about that.

    It's about the lessons (techniques) taught (hidden) in the ten chi ken series. I am considering what happens to the attacker because of the effect of the defender's block, soto uke deflects their attack, and them, sideways into an over rotation on their torso which exposes them to kagi zuki as an appropriate response.
    Uchi age zuki deflects their attack upwards as the defender does kai-shin with a deeply bent front leg under the attack perfectly lining them up for the 5 inch punch jun zuki to their sammai.

    Looking at the hombu instructional video set Kawashima Sensei distinctly does jun zuki in uchi age zuki, so why would the same technique done in the ten chi ken NOT reflect this (belt grade) standard technique?

    Kesshu
    A man with small testes should never get involved in a fight requiring cojones

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    Sorry Ade, I don't understand, because in tenchiken dai 2 the distance is much closer, at least for me often too close than in tenchiken dai 1! I myself asked why in tenchiken dai 1 there is no jun zuki?
    Johannes May

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ade View Post
    Gassho
    Uchi age zuki, gyaku uchi age deflects gyaku zuki jodan attack upwards and jun zuki finishes.

    So why, if soto uke zuki is represented in ten chi ken dai ichi accurately, does the tokuhon state that uchi age tzuki, when performed in ten chi ken dai ni, is finished with kagi zuki?
    Kesshu
    I thought in tenchiken dai 1, the punch is also a kagi zuki? So in tenchiken dai 2 it's much more clear to me.
    Johannes May

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    Interesting observation Adrian. I also initially learnt jun zuki following uchi age uke in tenchiken ni. When I returned to SK in 2004, after a 10 years break, it had changed to yoko kagi zuki. I note that in the Fukudoku-Hon (1991), yoko kagi zuki is mentionned.

    In the hokei forms, I have always learnt jun zuki as the counter in both soto uke zuki and uchi age uke zuki. However, I agree that in the former technique, depending on Maai, kagi zuki might be more appropriate.

    Technically, jun zuki means front punch. Although we interpret it as jun 'choku' zuki, maybe, any punch (kagi, furi, kumade etc) are acceptable depending on circumstances.
    Robert Gassin
    Melbourne ShorinjiKempo Branch
    Australia

    "Never fight an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and then beat you with experience"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gassin View Post
    Interesting observation Adrian. I also initially learnt jun zuki following uchi age uke in tenchiken ni. When I returned to SK in 2004, after a 10 years break, it had changed to yoko kagi zuki. I note that in the Fukudoku-Hon (1991), yoko kagi zuki is mentionned.

    In the hokei forms, I have always learnt jun zuki as the counter in both soto uke zuki and uchi age uke zuki. However, I agree that in the former technique, depending on Maai, kagi zuki might be more appropriate.
    I think that from tai gamae with jodan gyaku zuki as the attack (i.e. the usual hokei form), jun choku zuki generally works better than kagi zuki, unless the attacker comes in very deep. From hiraki gamae with jodan jun zuki as the attack (as in tenchiken), the distance tends to be closer and kagi zuki becomes a more likely option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gassin View Post
    Technically, jun zuki means front punch. Although we interpret it as jun 'choku' zuki, maybe, any punch (kagi, furi, kumade etc) are acceptable depending on circumstances.
    I think this is the right idea. Whether you use jun choku zuki or jun kagi zuki just depends of the attacker's distance after the block. I have always understood it to be kagi zuki in both Tenchiken 1 and 2 because that is the particular form we are practicing (and, in fact, Tenchiken 1 and 2 tannen and sotai are shown with kagi zuki on the Hombu videos). When practicing hokei (principles, not form), it could be either choku zuki or kagi zuki (or something else?), depending on distance.
    Gary Dolce
    Ann Arbor Branch
    WSKO
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    http://www.shorinjikempo.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ade View Post
    Gassho

    Both soto and uchi age zuki are done from tai gamae, with gyaku zuki jodan attack.

    Ten-chi-ken dai ni so tai is from hiraki gamae and the attack is jun zuki jodan, which is far closer mai-ai and would be in range of kagi zuki.

    My question is not about that.

    It's about the lessons (techniques) taught (hidden) in the ten chi ken series. I am considering what happens to the attacker because of the effect of the defender's block, soto uke deflects their attack, and them, sideways into an over rotation on their torso which exposes them to kagi zuki as an appropriate response.
    Uchi age zuki deflects their attack upwards as the defender does kai-shin with a deeply bent front leg under the attack perfectly lining them up for the 5 inch punch jun zuki to their sammai.

    Looking at the hombu instructional video set Kawashima Sensei distinctly does jun zuki in uchi age zuki, so why would the same technique done in the ten chi ken NOT reflect this (belt grade) standard technique?

    Kesshu
    Ade,

    I think that in Tenchiken 2, kagi zuki works because, while doing uchiage, you are moving strongly forward and to the side.

    I apparently missed this post when I was writing my previous reply, so I may not have properly understood your question. I did look at the hombu videos (the previous set - I don't have the new one just released this year). For the tannen forms, Sawamura Sensei clearly does kagi zuki for both Tenchiken 1 and 2. For the sotai forms, I believe both Sawamura Sensei and Kawashima Sensei are doing kagi zuki in both Tenchiken 1 and 2.

    Gary
    Gary Dolce
    Ann Arbor Branch
    WSKO
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    http://www.shorinjikempo.com

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    Lightbulb Getting there

    Gassho

    Firstly let me clearly state that I recognise that there are many ways, all correct, to perform this technique. I absolutely recognise Gary's point about henka and making it work due to the attacker's depth of attack.

    Here's my dilema, like Rob I was originally taught this technique (uchi age zuki) with kai-shin one foot move directly straight into the attacker and then to strike upwards with jun zuki, (this directly forwards motion is still mentioned in the Tokuhon page 54 number 3.)

    I was also originally taught that ten chi ken dai ni was this exact form, so the hokei matched.

    From 1991; however; the fukkudokuhon (and latterly the Tokuhon) changed that, and I have seen a shift towards everyone teaching a very distinct kagi zuki (very strong horizontal hook punch) into the kidneys area.
    My observation is the the ten chi ken tan en were never meant to be an empty form, for me, they were a way to practise the moves in techniques so that they became natural.

    Soto uke zuki involved a mae chidori ashi step to the side making kagi zuki the natural choice.
    Uchi age uke involved straight into the attacker foot movement making jun zuki driving upwards from low stance natural.

    Otherwise why would you do one or the other if there were no difference, if they're so similar then what's the point of having both of them?

    I have asked this of several very senior Japanese instructors over the years (and a similar one about uchi age dan zuki and soto uke dan zuki which got me a cuddle from an 8th dan in Paris taikai I kid you not!) and never received a satisfactory answer.

    If there is no difference then why the two techniques?
    If there is a difference then why isn't it reflected in the hokei to help teach it?

    Thanks for helping.

    Kesshu
    A man with small testes should never get involved in a fight requiring cojones

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dolce View Post
    Ade,

    I think that in Tenchiken 2, kagi zuki works because, while doing uchiage, you are moving strongly forward and to the side.
    Gary,

    It sounds like to me you are saying that in T1 the opponent is pretty much standing his/her ground compared to T2 which is more about pressing the attack forward and giving chase. Thus in T2 it is much more natural for jun zuki because the opponent is still moving and/or trying to get grounded for a counter strike.
    Raul Rodriguez
    Shorinji Kempo New York City Branch

    http://www.ShorinjiKempoNYC.org

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    I'm a bit of a newcomer, but for me tenchiken dai ni has always had count 3 being yoko kagi zuki to mae zanmae or yoko zanmae. I think that soto uke zuki and uchi age zuki are different setups - i.e. they start from a wider distance. You don't need to make heima dachi for those hokei, but you do in the context of tenchiken.

    [edit] the "secret" in tenchiken 1-2 is that there is lot of information useful for juho taisabaki. Heima dachi is unusual for goho but very useful for juho.
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

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    Gassho,
    I'm a little puzzled (though not concerned) by this.
    I was always taught jun-zuki as the counter in Hokei for both Soto Uke Zuki and Uchi Age Uke Zuki, but was always taught kagi zuki in both tannen and sotai versions of Tenchiken Dai Ichi and Dai Ni.
    Now as regards the application I've found kagi zuki makes perfect sense in Sotai Tenchiken Dai Ni as the 'recipient' of Tenchiken Dai Ni (can't really call him Kogeki as he's on the receiving end throughout) moves from kokotsu forward into zenkutsu to perform jun zuki jodan, with uchiage moving forward and in under the arm. This makes kagi zuki to yoko/ushiro sanmai an effective strike.
    I think it's possible the constant forward motion of the aggressor means that the distance is constantly closing in an 'unpredictable' way so Kagi zuki can help prevent the strike being smothered by the sudden loss of range.
    I've always found the kagi zuki in Tenchiken dai ichi more problematic as it seems to be reaching for a target that is better placed for a straight strike, and the soto-uke always seems a bit redundant as there is no incomming threat to be dealt with.
    Anyway just my penny-worth.
    Kesshu,
    Regards
    Paul

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    Gassho.

    Coming in to this a little late, but been busy with more important things here in Japan.

    Quote Originally Posted by paul browne View Post
    I was always taught jun-zuki as the counter in Hokei for both Soto Uke Zuki and Uchi Age Uke Zuki, but was always taught kagi zuki in both tannen and sotai versions of Tenchiken Dai Ichi and Dai Ni.
    I have never seen any sensei teach it any other way than Paul describes.
    It has always been like Paul describes, any other ways is variations from the basics or misunderstandings.
    (I have over the years sometimes noted that due to language difficulties some kenshi have taken the way shown to them as an example of what is not correct as the way you should do a technique.)

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
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    My experience with this is the same as that of Anders.
    Kari Maki-Kuutti

    www.shorinjikempo.fi

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