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Thread: Broken kiai

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    Question Broken kiai

    Gassho

    One of my senior kenshi has broken his kiai (in a grading test.)

    He is unable to make loud noise without loss of voice for several hours, I have advised him to see his doctor and to research into the area of fukumi kiai.

    Has anyone else experienced anything like this loss of kiai before?

    Has anyone any practical exercise(s) for fukumi kiai which, as stated in the Tokuhon, is the ultimate form of kiai?

    Kesshu
    A man with small testes should never get involved in a fight requiring cojones

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    Do you mean it seriously?
    N. Schweizer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ade View Post
    Gassho

    One of my senior kenshi has broken his kiai (in a grading test.)

    He is unable to make loud noise without loss of voice for several hours, I have advised him to see his doctor and to research into the area of fukumi kiai.

    Has anyone else experienced anything like this loss of kiai before?

    Has anyone any practical exercise(s) for fukumi kiai which, as stated in the Tokuhon, is the ultimate form of kiai?

    Kesshu
    Um, he might want to see a voice therapist. One of the things that can happen if you kiai improperly (without any air passing through the vocal cords) is that you can get nodes on your cords, which can permanently ruin your voice. I personally would recommend that this person NOT kiai for several months, and not even speak loudly. On top of that, go see a therapist for more specific exercises. Cheerleaders and rock stars also have this issue.

    I'm a singer, and I personally don't kiai that often. It's nice to do a psycho kiai when you're trying to intimidate uke or something, but if you don't know how to use your voice, you can permanently ruin it. The surgery to fix nodes is risky, because they can nick the cords and ruin them even if they get the nodes off. During the period when nodes are forming, you can make them go away by being really careful with your voice. After they harden, the only thing that works is that surgery I mentioned.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ade View Post
    Gassho

    One of my senior kenshi has broken his kiai (in a grading test.)

    He is unable to make loud noise without loss of voice for several hours, I have advised him to see his doctor and to research into the area of fukumi kiai.

    Has anyone else experienced anything like this loss of kiai before?

    Has anyone any practical exercise(s) for fukumi kiai which, as stated in the Tokuhon, is the ultimate form of kiai?

    Kesshu
    Loud kiai is vastly overrated in my opinion. The idea of attacking someone with ones mouth open is asking for a seriously broken jaw. I've never understood why we train people to do it in randoori.

    As for practice of fukumi kiai, simply tense the stomach muscles as a kind of spasm and let the resulting pressure escape through the nose. Mouth closed.

    Dirk

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere View Post
    Loud kiai is vastly overrated in my opinion. The idea of attacking someone with ones mouth open is asking for a seriously broken jaw. I've never understood why we train people to do it in randoori.

    As for practice of fukumi kiai, simply tense the stomach muscles as a kind of spasm and let the resulting pressure escape through the nose. Mouth closed.

    Dirk
    Oh, make sure the throat's open when you do it, or at least that it's not feeling any strain. If you close the throat, can also lead to nodes. Air escapes slower, which some people say is important, but you can do the same thing without straining your vocal cords.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere View Post
    Loud kiai is vastly overrated in my opinion. The idea of attacking someone with ones mouth open is asking for a seriously broken jaw. I've never understood why we train people to do it in randoori.

    As for practice of fukumi kiai, simply tense the stomach muscles as a kind of spasm and let the resulting pressure escape through the nose. Mouth closed.

    Dirk
    I agree, kiai is great for show but having an open mouth does increase the risk of a broken or dislocated jaw. In a real situation, screaming whilst attacking can distract the opponent but doing so at the moment of impact has no such effect.

    However, it does force you to focus on proper breathing.

    Cheers,
    Robert Gassin
    Melbourne ShorinjiKempo Branch
    Australia

    "Never fight an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and then beat you with experience"

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    Default Vocal Cord Nodules

    Adrian,

    The below link is to a decent summary of the above condition,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_fold_nodule

    As you can see from the article, Correct Kiai should NOT produce vocal cord nodules (If we are subscribing to the idea that Kiai is produced by tensing the diaphragm and stomach muscles, and not by using the voicebox).

    It would be a good idea to rest the voice for a while, and then return to Kiai (Fukumi or normal, it's up to the Kenshi involved). It may also be a good idea to have a look at his Kiai, see if he's using his upper respiratory tract.

    Or get him to use Fukumi Kiai, which you'll know more about than me.

    Yours,

    -Jame.
    JC McCrae

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    Default fukumi kiai = true kiai

    Hi all,

    My current opinion on this issue is very much influenced by Aosaka sensei's lesson on proper breathing during Goho (German Gasshuku 2007 in Augsburg).
    To summarize his lesson: in goho, during the punch/kick but before impact you release air but stay relaxed, at the point of impact you press all air out using your stomach muscles and thus tense your whole body to give your punch real force. I've tried this a couple of times. It needs training to time this correctly in order not to tense too early making your punch slow or to late missing the actual point of impact. Most importantly, this is not possible with your mouth open like for a loud kiai. The body tension is very different. To put it another way: with the mouth open you rather release your energy/power, whereas keeping your mouth/teeth closed you contain the energy/power and can use it for your punch.

    This kind of breathing practically forbids an open mouthed/loud kiai and if properly done results in a fukumi kiai.

    that much from me ... tune out
    Andrej Mantei

    Shorinji Kempo, Humboldt-University Berlin Branch

    disclaimer: I deny everything, it was THE OTHERS(TM) again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrej Mantei View Post
    To summarize his lesson: in goho, during the punch/kick but before impact you release air but stay relaxed, at the point of impact you press all air out using your stomach muscles and thus tense your whole body to give your punch real force.
    There is also the other reason that the most likely time to get hit *extremely* hard is when you're attacking. Think two cars in head on crash. Breathing out with fukumi kiai acts as a shock absorber; limits the pressure on internal organs; stiffens the stomach muscle to maximum at the most dangerous point of the attack..

    Dirk

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