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Thread: Looking for Scholarly Papers on Ki/Chi

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    Default Looking for Scholarly Papers on Ki/Chi

    onegaishimasu

    First, I'd like to say I'm glad the forum opened back up so I could finally register. :-) Second, I half expect to be moved to what the mods feel is the most appropriate forum.

    I'm gathering sources for a research-based academic argument for one of my classes, on the physical and spiritual aspects of ki. Of course I don't expect there to be much of anything out there relating directly to ki and the martial arts, so I'm expecting to hit the topic at a tangent. There is a wealth of research out there on the health benefits of tai chi chuan in particular, and that's providing some of the physical with which I can draw parallels.

    I still have a lack though in scholarly opinion on the philosophical/spiritual nature of ki, and nothing at all that takes the position of a detractor. If anyone has any leads on sources I could hunt up, I'd be grateful.

    -B
    Beth's Buki
    Walk softly and carry a big stick.

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    Have you come across the writings of Yasuo Yuasa? There is a book in English entitled The Body, Self-Cultivation and Ki-Energy, published by SUNY Press in 1993.

    It is a translation of a Japanese work and if you look at pp.xxxv-xxxvi, you will see the ideas behond the translation. I have the Japanese originals and actually disagree with these ideas. As for the scholarly nature of the work, you can judge for yourself from the footnotes and bibliography.

    Best wishes,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Thanks, Peter. I'll check into that.

    regards,
    B
    Beth's Buki
    Walk softly and carry a big stick.

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    Here's a link I occasionally post that should give you some material to work with:
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/67471/...fu_mind_punch/

    BTW, Derren Brown is a serious sceptic when it comes to NewAge superstition and gullibility.

    Dirk

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    In general Yang Jwing Ming writes some really great stuff that is digestible by a layman, but seems of a scholarly bent.

    In particular I would check out Muscle/Tendon Changing Marrow/Brain washing Qigong.

    The book goes into detail on the concept of Qi and surrounding concepts like Kan/Li etc.

    Here's a link::

    http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/books...ecret_of_youth


    I have this one, it is very scholarly and quite a dense read, but good nonetheless.

    Anyway, his books are the best I have found so far for good TCM info on Qi and related subjects.

    Also you can read The Yellow Emporers Classic of medicine, which as far as I know is still considered to be a foundational book of TCM.

    Anyway these 2 are good choices for general reading on the subject IMO, and they have a very low cheese factor unlike "Qigong For Your Toy Poodle" and other such things that can be found out there.
    Zachariah Zinn

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    Don't forget Tohei.

    See also Brian Kennedy's article, "Chi, The X-factor," at http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_kennedy_0201.htm

    You will also find some useful material in Tom Green's "Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia." Specifically, see the entries by Stan Henning and William Bodiford.

    And, finally, from a posting I did at BudoSeek! some years back:

    The usage of the term qi (pinyin)/ch'i (Wade-Giles) in a military context dates way back. For example, during the fourth century BCE, Marquis Wen of Wei began hiring veteran soldiers to teach his new recruits how to march and wield weapons. And, in this era, the art of command and control was known as manipulating ch'i (energy). Sources include Greer, John P. The Armies and Enemies of Ancient China 1027 B.C. - 1286 A.D. (Worthing, Sussex, UK: Wargame Research Group, 1975); Grousset, René. The Empire of the Steppes: A History of Central Asia, translated from the French by Naomi Walford (New Brunswick, NJ: Rutgers University Press, 1970), and Sawyer, Ralph D. "Chinese Warfare: The Paradox of the Unlearned Lesson," American Diplomacy, http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD...na_sawyer.html. Mencius also used the term.

    Like most words, meaning changes over time. And, so did concepts. Thus, you'll also want to look at Neo-Confucian scholarship. For example, about 1160 CE, Southern Chinese philosophers (including the Neo-Confucianist scholar Chu Hsi) introduced the Greco-Indian concepts of the Three Treasures into Chinese exercise routines. The Three Treasures were ching (semen in men, and life energy in the universe), ch’i (breath in people and cosmic energies in the universe), and shen (consciousness in people and the Tao in the universe). For more on this, see, for example, Alter, Joseph. The Wrestler’s Body: Identity and Ideology in North India (Berkeley, CA: University of California Press, 1992), at http://www-ucpress.berkeley.edu:3030...th_asia/alter; Blofeld, John. Taoism: The Road to Immortality (Boston: Shambhala, 1985); Cleary, Thomas. Vitality, Energy, Spirit: A Taoist Sourcebook (Boston: Shambhala, 1991); and La Barre, Weston. The Ghost Dance: The Origins of Religion (New York: Delta Books, 1972). Likewise, read about the late 15th/early 16th century philosoper Wang Yang-ming, whose argument that all human existence was decided by the balancing of i ("patterns") with ch'i ("energy") was very popular during the 17th century (e.g., a century or so after his death).

    The Taoist belief was that ch'i (internal energy) developed fastest at places that were 2,000 to 4,000 feet higher than the surrounding territory, so during the thirteenth century some Taoists started building hermitages in Hopei Province's Wu Tang Mountains. These were generally dedicated to Hsüan-wu, the God of the North, a deity symbolized by the essence Yin, the element water, and the zodiac signs of the tortoise and snake. Under the Sung, Hsüan-wu was also the god of war, and as such the deity assumed even greater importance under the Ming, and in 1412 the Imperial government ordered major construction on temples in the region. During the seventeenth century, stories and stage plays made these monasteries the home of some famous martial art instructors, to include Chang San-feng. See, for example, Seidel, Anna. "A Taoist Immortal of the Ming Dynasty: Chang San-feng," Self and Society in Ming Thought, edited by William Theodore de Bary and the Conference on Ming Thought (New York: Columbia University Press, 1970).

    And this brings us to the 18th century, by which time Chinese martial arts as we know them today were in full swing. For example, about 1794, the ch'i-kung ("internal energy") technique known as chin chung chao, or "Armor of the Golden Bell," developed in Honan Province. The name referred to Taoist breathing methods that supposedly allowed practitioners to resist sword blows. These methods proved more popular with urban hucksters than soldiers or magistrates, as they often involved nothing more than the instructor burning incense and chanting spells while his assistant beat the paying students with sticks. And whenever cynical officials brought their own swords and asked to see the techniques work for themselves, the masters always begged off, saying, "Ours is the Way of the Immortals; we don't use knives or violence." See, for example, Esherick, Joseph W. The Origins of the Boxer Uprising (Berkeley, CA: University of California, 1987); Lagerwey, John. Taoist Ritual in Chinese Society and History (New York: Macmillan, 1987); Naquin, Susan. Millenarian Rebellion in China: The Eight Trigrams Uprising of 1813 (New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 1976); and Naquin, Susan. Shantung Rebellion: The Wang Lun Uprising of 1774 (New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 1981).

    ***

    Finally, for comparison and contrast at the academic level, take a look at the Japanese interpretation of ki, the Brahmin interpretation of breath, and the Islamic concept of the inner jihad, then compare to the European concepts of ether and phlogisten.

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    Another good resource is the book "A Brief History of Qi" by Zhang Yu Huan and Ken Rose. It is a study of the concept of qi in Chinese history and culture, and how it has changed over time and influenced philosophy, medicine, art, martial arts, and just about everything else. More pseudo-scholarly than scholarly, but an excellent overview and introduction, and probably very useful for the research you are doing.

    Josh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Svinth View Post
    Finally, for comparison and contrast at the academic level, take a look at the Japanese interpretation of ki, the Brahmin interpretation of breath, and the Islamic concept of the inner jihad, then compare to the European concepts of ether and phlogisten.
    Ether and Phlogisten are now-discredited scientific theories.
    More accurately, look at "vril" and "animal magnetism" for European interpretations, and in India (and the Sanskrit world) "prana".

    Dirk

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    Newton's theories are also discredited, but they work well enough for day-to-day purposes. And so, at least in Asian martial arts, do statements such as "drop the center and extend the qi."

    Now, if one is being fairly specific, phlogiston is a seventeenth century theory first created to explain the oxidation of metals. As things decompose, their essence is changed. What does one call the lost essence? (Oxygen, actually, but that's not what they thought back then.) Compare to the internal alchemy of cinnabar in the dantien. Aether, meanwhile, corresponds fairly closely to the Japanese concept of Void/Sky/Heaven; Akasha is the Sanskrit equivalent. Here, what is the quintessential energy of heaven? (And in this context, quintessential is precise, as the question is, what is the essence of the five elements?)

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    Thanks everyone for the leads. I've just won instructor approval for the thesis (*whew*), and I think he'll be surprised at the amount of info I can pull -- even if it's not from randomized, controlled trials.

    regards,
    B
    Beth's Buki
    Walk softly and carry a big stick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Svinth View Post
    Newton's theories are also discredited, but they work well enough for day-to-day purposes. And so, at least in Asian martial arts, do statements such as "drop the center and extend the qi."

    Now, if one is being fairly specific, phlogiston is a seventeenth century theory first created to explain the oxidation of metals. As things decompose, their essence is changed. What does one call the lost essence? (Oxygen, actually, but that's not what they thought back then.) Compare to the internal alchemy of cinnabar in the dantien. Aether, meanwhile, corresponds fairly closely to the Japanese concept of Void/Sky/Heaven; Akasha is the Sanskrit equivalent. Here, what is the quintessential energy of heaven? (And in this context, quintessential is precise, as the question is, what is the essence of the five elements?)
    A number of points.
    First, one should not confuse metaphor with a literal scientific interpretation or theory. "Drop the centre and extend the qi" is a mix of literal instruction and metaphor.

    Second, Newton's theories are not discredited. They are highly accurate approximations within inertial frames and in flat space. The notion of phlogisten as an explanation for combustion is *utterly* discredited ie it has no merit whatsoever. Phlogisten is *not* oxygen and the process of combustion is a far wider concept. At best it is a failed metaphor. The same is true of the Victorian aether which was posited as a medium for the propagation of light and provided a (non existent) absolute frame of reference.

    If you want to go mystical by comparing modern scientific notions to ancient Eastern philosophical/religious ones then it's been done (unconvincingly) in such books as "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" and "The Tao of Physics". Both interesting and instructive books, but stretching similarities to breaking point.

    Finally, I have never come across any examples Chi/Ki/Prana/Vril/ etc that could not be explained (and often improved upon) my modern science, physiology and psychology. That Derren Brown video I posted is a case in point.

    Finally, the whole concept of "Life Force" is another dead duck from the Victorian era, unless you care to see it as a metaphor for the information processing systems that can be used to define "life". In which case computer and information theory is the thing to study, and not eastern mysticism.

    Dirk

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere View Post
    1Finally, I have never come across any examples Chi/Ki/Prana/Vril/ etc that could not be explained (and often improved upon) my modern science, physiology and psychology. That Derren Brown video I posted is a case in point.

    Finally, the whole concept of "Life Force" is another dead duck from the Victorian era, unless you care to see it as a metaphor for the information processing systems that can be used to define "life". In which case computer and information theory is the thing to study, and not eastern mysticism.

    Dirk
    I believe the thread was created for people to give suggestions for reading, not so you could come here and explain why people shouldn't believe in Qi/Prana/Whatever.

    No offense but such a debate belongs in it's own thread (and honestly there have probably been hundreds on e-budo on this subject), and I personally didn't see the thread as a solicitation of opinions on the existence or lack thereof of Qi/Prana/Whatever.
    Zachariah Zinn

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZachZinn View Post
    I believe the thread was created for people to give suggestions for reading, not so you could come here and explain why people shouldn't believe in Qi/Prana/Whatever.

    No offense but such a debate belongs in it's own thread (and honestly there have probably been hundreds on e-budo on this subject), and I personally didn't see the thread as a solicitation of opinions on the existence or lack thereof of Qi/Prana/Whatever.
    The two are intimately connected. It's rather pointless only looking at one side of the question ie assuming that Ki really exists as some metaphysical force outside the realm of modern science. My reading suggestions start with whatever the OP can find relating to Derren Brown - there's plenty out there and often he'll tell you how the trick is done. I would also point the OP to standard works on hypnotism, suggestion and subliminal influence - most notably the work of Milton Erickson. Ignoring what modern Western science has to say is IMO a very big mistake (unless the target audience are gullible NewAgers wanting to be fed crap).

    Dirk

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere View Post
    The two are intimately connected. It's rather pointless only looking at one side of the question ie assuming that Ki really exists as some metaphysical force outside the realm of modern science. My reading suggestions start with whatever the OP can find relating to Derren Brown - there's plenty out there and often he'll tell you how the trick is done. I would also point the OP to standard works on hypnotism, suggestion and subliminal influence - most notably the work of Milton Erickson. Ignoring what modern Western science has to say is IMO a very big mistake (unless the target audience are gullible NewAgers wanting to be fed crap).

    Dirk
    Wow, that's alot of assumption there Dirk. Why do you assume that all the parlor trick stuff is all that exists of the concept of Qi in the martial arts?

    I reccomended the Yang Jwing Ming books because they start from a fairly rational perspective that is easy understandable by westerners, and makes no mention of super powers, no touch KO's or anything or the sort.

    Who is saying we should ignore modern science?

    As far as detractors go though, wouldn't James Randi be a good starting point?

    Or there is always this guy:

    here is a quackwatch article on Qigong, can't get much more skeptical than this guy.

    http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...opics/acu.html
    Last edited by ZachZinn; 7th November 2007 at 21:47.
    Zachariah Zinn

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZachZinn View Post

    Or there is always this guy:
    here is a quackwatch article on Qigong, can't get much more skeptical than this guy.

    http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...opics/acu.html
    That is actually an excellent resource for what the OP wanted, esp the references at the end of the article.

    Dirk

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