Firearms ?

[TomT404]

What would be the ideal firearm to cary for personal defense if that was the route a person wanted to take?

What to consider: Caliber, Size, Consealability, Acual use in a situation.

Would love to get some feedback on any of this.

Thanks, Tom Thornton

[Duanew]

Things to consider when buying a weapon.
1. It has to be reliable
2. YOU have to be able to hit with it under extreme stress.
3. It has to be a size that you will carry with you when you intend to carry a gun.
4. It is not a substituite for common sense and awareness.
5. It may only be used legally in the MINORITY of self defense situations.

Duane Wolfe

[Juan Perez]

Currently, I'm assigned the Glock 26 as my carry weapon. For my current duties, it fits the bill in as far as concealment and reliability. Also, we are pretty accurate with them. But, then again, we get to fire about 2,500 rounds a month with them.

[Jitsumania]

As a civilian with a CHL in Texas I carry a Smith and Weson 6904, 9mm. Have had it for 3 yrs with no complaints. Older pistol but very reliable in construction and accurate shooter. Conceals well with IWB (in waistband holster). Will be replaced after the new year with a Glock 27 40 cal. A bit lighter and good shooting gun with a bit more stopping power than a 9 mm. Like the balance and feel, strips down easier as well for regular cleaning. Second choice is a compact Kahr 45 cal.

[TonyU]

I'm a firearms instructor. That, with my interests and collection of firearms I've shot many of the pistol manufactures out there.
I'm am biased towards Browning 1911 style designs (.45's) and Glocks.
I currently carry a Glock 21SF in .45, on duty and off duty. Fortunately with my body structure and clothing I hide large frame autos very well.
On those rare occasions where I have to attend a formal affair I wear a snub nose .38.
Either way you have already received some good advice hear. Do some research. There are a ton of manufacturers and calibers out there.
Even though I hate S&W semi's (love their revolvers though) stick to the major brands and calibers. Do not go no less than a .38.
If you can go to a local gun store, feel the guns, ask questions and if they have the option they may have guns you can test fire.
Make sure it fits in your hand comfortable, good clear sights that can also be seen in low light situations. Check that you can hold the weapon and a flashlight if need be.
Once you make the purchase make sure you get the right holster for it. If you decide to utilize an inside the pants holster (IWB) make sure it's of good quality. One that doesn't collapase when you take the pistol out. On that note make sure you practice drawing and re holstering. Many people forget being able to put the gun away smoothly and quickly is just as important as being to draw it.
Also if you have children keep it secure it from them. Depending how you feel it may be a good opportunity to teach your children about firearms and safety.
Finally once you get it practice, practice, and practice. Like martial arts it's a degradable skill.
Good luck.

[Amir]

Not a gun expert, rather more of a simplton in this subject.

But I guess this is the reason I noticed the most important factor is missing. Buy a gun you will find comfortable to carry daily.

A better shooting gun will not be of any significance if it will remain in your house safe (the place most guns are, due to their being uncomfortable to carry). Look around, check how most people around you carry their guns. Unless you are one of them, forget the LEO, whose guns are not concealed.

It would be better to have a couple of bullents less in the magazine, a less accurate gun, and with lower stopping power. But having it one you at the critical moment.

Further, check the gun is comfortable for you to hold, and you can fire with in a fairly accurate level at a standard civilian range (I think it is 8m distance) from the end of the first introoduction lession (can be done with ease if the gun matchs you, and your criteria is hitting a human sized target - not the small shooting competitions score rings).



Amir

[TonyU]

But I guess this is the reason I noticed the most important factor is missing. Buy a gun you will find comfortable to carry daily.

Amir

No, it's not missing. You just said it better.

[Joseph Svinth]

For pistols and revolvers, as said above, the weapon should:

1. Feel good in your hand.

2. Not be so heavy that it causes your pants to sag.

3. Not bulge out of your shirt every time you move.

Something not mentioned, though, is 4) cost of ammunition and 5) bullet design.

The 2,500 rounds per month, mentioned above, is more ammunition than a National Guard or Army Reserve infantry company got to shoot each year during the 1990s. Why? Money. Back in 2001, the gub'mint was paying about $0.12 per round of 9mm ball, and about $0.33 per round of .45 ACP ball. So, if you shoot that much military 9mm ball, you're looking at $300 a month in ammunition, and if you shoot that much per month in military .45 ACP ball, then you're shooting $825 a month in ammunition. Ergo, the US military's change to 9mm from .38 Special and .45 ACP had little or nothing to do with the handguns, and a lot to do with the cartridges fired in those handguns.

For shooting people, it is generally agreed that, other things being equal, 10mm (.40 caliber) or larger bullets has better stopping power than do 9mm/.357 caliber bullets. Even so, bullet design matters. Thus, a really good hollow-point .380 may produce similar blast effect on gelatin as does a military .45 ACP cartridge.

For shooting people who are not wearing body armor, you probably want to take a look at hollow-point bullets. Since the Second South African War, when the Boers used hollow-point hunting bullets fired from Mauser rifles, militaries have not used hollow-points too often. This has nothing to do with the lip service that the Army likes to give to its strict adherence to the Hague Convention. (As you will recall, that was the international treaty that prohibited aerial bombardments of cities, poison gas, unrestricted submarine warfare, and expanding bullets.) Instead, it is because hollow-point bullets do not reliably feed into mass-produced self-loading weapons. Consequently, if you plan on shooting hollow-points through your semi-automatic pistol, please test fire regularly to ensure that your pistol likes the particular cartridge that you are using. Otherwise, you'll be clearing a lot of stovepipe jams. Stovepipe jams are annoying on the range, and potentially fatal in social situations.

Hollow-point factory loads are not cheap. For example, a box of 50 rounds of .45 caliber hollow-point currently runs about $35 (plus sales tax, if applicable). Thus, shooting hollow-point, that's $1,750 per month in ammunition costs, assuming you practice as much as Juan does. The cost of .40 S&W is about the same -- bulk reloads run maybe $70 for 300 rounds.

Smaller cartridges are not necessarily all that much cheaper: .380, for example, is not the most ballistically impressive cartridge ever designed, but the pistols chambered in that caliber come in some remarkably small packages. For daily carry, the small size is definitely a consideration. A box of 50 rounds of .380 hollow-point costs about $16.25. Meanwhile, Russian-made .380 comes in bulk at $110 per 500 rounds.

For revolvers, .38 Special is affordable. For example, one can buy 1,300 rounds of .38 Special wadcutters for just $289.

Still too much money? Well, then, how about a) buying a couple pistols, one chambered in something larger that you shoot at a rate of perhaps a hundred rounds per month, and another chambered in .22 Long Rifle that you shoot like crazy, or b) buying a .22 LR conversion kit for your Glock or Government Model? Cost of .22 LR is around $27 per 500 rounds. That's about $0.054 per shot, and handgun shooting literally doesn't get much cheaper than that.

[TommyK]

Hi Joe,

The only thing I disagree with is your last paragraph. Felt recoil, bullet velocity and a slight wind can make a diference when using .22LR for too many practice sessions. I agree a '40' or higher is generally more effective, but be careful that the use of .22LR to save some coin does not take you off your mark.

TommyK

[Joseph Svinth]

Well, if you shoot enough to become a reincarnation of Annie Oakley (who did, by the way, shoot .22 LR), you could use .22 LR as your primary piece. Both the Mob and Mossad reportedly liked Rugers -- they're so cheap that one has few qualms about dropping the piece into the river after the social work, the ballistics are really hard to trace back to your weapon in the event that the cops manage to recover it from the river, and half a dozen rounds popped into the eyes or the back of the head reportedly do the job. Fairly quiet, too, all things considered.

Not the greatest defensive cartridge, but hey, it beats throwing rocks, and some of the pieces are so small that a practiced shooter might get off several rounds before the other fellow even knows you've got something in your hand.

As for the kits for the Glocks and Government Models, the idea is that you shoot a few hundred rounds a week using the .22 LR, and a few dozen more rounds a week in the social caliber. That way, you shoot a lot, but don't go bankrupt in the process.

[Jeff Cook]

Winchester White Box FMJ 9mm at Wal-Mart is running less than $15 for 100 rds. It is a great target round if you want to practice your tactical handgun skills on a commercial range and still be able to buy a latte at Starbuck's on your way back home - assuming you can find a commercial range that lets you practice tactical skills. Good luck with that!

Or you could just make friends with a guy like me who has property where you can shoot for free and I grind my own coffee beans. Sorry, but I LOVE bragging about being able to step out the back door, rip off 500 rds in various calibers, and not have to worry about the neighbors calling the police. Every now and then a neighbor will call up and say "Jeff, sounds like you are shooting the SKS. Can I come over and pop off a few?" I live in a GREAT area.

By the way, I recently purchased a Springfield XD. I spent some time firing it and the Glock 19. The G19 is an excellent weapon, of course, but the XD is the gun for my hand (turns out my wife prefers the G19 - she has a smaller hand, and the XD looks and feels like the 1911 in the hand). If you guys have not checked out the XD and are considering a purchase, I strongly encourage you to do so. It has some features that the Glocks do not have, and it has exceeded the Glock Torture Test standards.

I had the opportunity to buy the Glock 26 or 27 for an exceptionally good price (less than $400), but they are a little too small for me. Great backup weapons though. MAJ Perez, is the G26 your primary or backup weapon? Are you using the extended mags so you can get your whole hand on the weapon? Are there any misfeed issues from gripping the bottom of an extended mag? What are your groups like at 25 meters? I am still considering the purchase of a G26, and I trust your opinon above all others on this.

Jeff Cook

[Duanew]

[QUOTE=Joseph Svinth;456188]For pistols and revolvers, as said above, the weapon should:

1. Feel good in your hand.

2. Not be so heavy that it causes your pants to sag.

Buy a decent belt.

3. Not bulge out of your shirt every time you move.

Buy a decent holster and belt.



For shooting people, it is generally agreed that, other things being equal, 10mm (.40 caliber) or larger bullets has better stopping power than do 9mm/.357 caliber bullets.


There is no such thing as stopping power. Of course that extra 0.02 caliber makes all the difference. It's generally agreed upon by people who prefer bigger bullets. It's where you put the round that counts. A well designed bullet that expands but doesn't exit also helps-but there are too many variables in real fight to guarantee anything.

Even so, bullet design matters. Thus, a really good hollow-point .380 may produce similar blast effect on gelatin as does a military .45 ACP cartridge.

Gelatin will show penetration, permanant wound cavity and temporary wound cavity (if you have high speed film). If you have a blast effect your muzzle is too close to the jello. A good .380 (Gold Dot) will expand to or beyond a .45 caliber. The .45 will not expand and will continue well beyond what is considered appropriate penetration (12-18 inches). A good .380 will stop in that area. Unless you are forced by law to use FMJ don't. It over penetrates and zips through with little immediate effect (ask NYPD why they finally switched to FMJ). If you cannot use hollow points Federal makes EFMJ-expandable FMJ-see their website.

This has nothing to do with the lip service that the Army likes to give to its strict adherence to the Hague Convention. (As you will recall, that was the international treaty that prohibited aerial bombardments of cities, poison gas, unrestricted submarine warfare, and expanding bullets.)

The agreement was never signed by the U.S.

Otherwise, you'll be clearing a lot of stovepipe jams. Stovepipe jams are annoying on the range, and potentially fatal in social situations.

Stovepipes are a failure to extract/eject properly. The empty casing gets caught as the slide closes, protruding from the chamber resembling a stove pipe. If they fail to chamber you end up with a failure to feed/fail to go into battery situation-which still sucks.



b) buying a .22 LR conversion kit for your Glock or Government Model?

For the Glock I would recommend the Advantage Arms kit over the Ceiner. Lock back on an empty mag and reliability are the two main reasons.

Duane Wolfe

[Brian Owens]

...There is no such thing as stopping power....

Hogwash, stuff, and nonsense!

[Joseph Svinth]

Although the United States did not sign the Hague Convention of 1899, it did sign the Hague Convention of 1907. See specifically Article 23 (e), which states, in part, "...it is especially forbidden -- To employ arms, projectiles, or material [sic] calculated to cause unnecessary suffering." One can certainly argue about whether fire storms and atom bombs represent arms, projectiles, or materiel that cause unnecessary suffering for civilian populations, but for purposes of cartridge design, the US Army generally accepted this premise until 1985. Then, in 1985, the Judge Advocate General published a position paper that stated, in part, "...expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counterterrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another State." This changed some rules for counterterrorist operations, but did not change any premises for armed combat against the police or military forces of a generally recognized state. As I recall, said JAG paper also referred quite proudly to the USA's strict prior adherence to said Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 in the areas of cartridge and bullet design.

Bianchi, DeSantis, and Don Hume (for example) make some really nice pistol belts, but if you wear dress slacks or suits, then you will have to get the 1-1/4" size in order to get the belt to fit through your belt loops. My guess is that a Desert Eagle .50 will cause even the best 1-1/4" belt to sag in fairly short order. A Chief's Special, on the other hand, should fit fine for years.

If one is Annie Oakley, than .22 LR is without doubt the handgun cartridge of choice. If one is not such a sure shot, then most people feel better dressed carrying something chambered in a larger caliber.

Bottom line? Buy something you like from the get-go. Otherwise, you'll be swapping and trading for years, and still not have what you want.

[Brian Owens]

...Still too much money? Well, then, how about a) buying a couple pistols, one chambered in something larger that you shoot at a rate of perhaps a hundred rounds per month, and another chambered in .22 Long Rifle that you shoot like crazy, or b) buying a .22 LR conversion kit for your Glock or Government Model? Cost of .22 LR is around $27 per 500 rounds. That's about $0.054 per shot, and handgun shooting literally doesn't get much cheaper than that.

...The only thing I disagree with is your last paragraph. Felt recoil, bullet velocity and a slight wind can make a diference when using .22LR for too many practice sessions. I agree a '40' or higher is generally more effective, but be careful that the use of .22LR to save some coin does not take you off your mark.

Since the typical "defensive" use of a handgun occurs at a range of less than 5 metres -- that's right; not 500 metres, not 50 metres, but 5 metres -- and since the adreneline rush and the psychomotor effects of stress change such things as perceived recoil, muzzle flash, etc., there is really little reason to fear that practicing with a small caliber handgun will throw off your large caliber game. On the contrary, it can enhance it.

Learning proper draw, body positioning, instinctive first-round aim, etc. requires practice and lots of it, and using .22s, as Joe points out, can save a lot of money.

The military and many police departments and protection agencies go even further and use laser engagement systems for much of their training; not just for safety, but also to save money. The equipment is a one-time purchase, as opposed to the ongoing expense of ammunition purchases.