Grappling is great...but why?

[MikeWilliams]

in fact I'm saying that no matter what art you study mass counts and counts seriously.

That's true, all other things being equal.

I'm a fairly sucky BJJ blue belt, but I would hang up my belt if I couldn't give any raw noob a run for their money in a pure grappling encounter no matter how big and strong they were. (Obviously everybody has off days, so if one of you is a 300lb powerlifter and hapens to visit me and squashes me into Australia, I'm having an off day. OK? )

The size and weight thing applies to all unarmed arts, but more so standing up IMO (whether grappling or striking). That's why newaza skills are so often advocated for smaller people - on the ground you minimise the number of varibles that come into play and are able to negate (to a certain extent) your opponent's strength/size advantage.

To Richard (Sapporo Ichiban) - 215lbs is light? You must be American! (I'm 5'10" and about 185lbs, I compete at 174lbs, and I'm one of the larger guys at my judo club)

[Nii]

Mike Williams has made my exact point, but clearer. All things being equal, a heavier guy will defeat the lighter guy. But on the ground the advantage is still there, but to a lesser extent, since leverage does not rely on strength as much as hard standup strikes.

If you were fighting a larger opponent than you who is less skilled, in a stand up fight his strength would come in handy in negating your higher level of skill. We can fight standup instinctively, but not on the ground. The opponents strength advantage doesn't apply on the ground as much, since they will rely on strength rather than leverage. Note this is a scenario where the opponent is less skilled, but larger.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and on the topic of animals fighting... I know we are using gorillas as an example since we are similar to primates, but I'd like to say that kangaroos here in Australia can pack a MEAN kick. I mean those buggers spend their time travelling by jumping around 1 metre high constantly or so =P

[Cufaol]

Just for the record: You guys are assuming all of that if all other variables are equal. Fact is they never are, nor will they ever be, equal. Mass only counts big time if you know how to use it.

And if you're fighting while standing up against a large, unskilled opponent, chances are you get to beat the pulp out of him. If you are skilled that is, ofcourse. I have seen my sensei throw/knock around guys who were much stronger/bigger than him at a regular basis (on the mat, during practice and not on the street ofcourse)...Problem is that the bigger your opponent is, the greater your skill has to be. imho ofcourse.

[Sapporo Ichiban]

Hi Mike:

Yeah, I'm about 190 lbs now (and, unfortunately, a nice chunk of that isn't muscle anymore so if I lost some blubber I'd be around 175 lbs) but there are a lot of corn-fed guys over here who grow pretty big.


To All:

Thanks for the info. It's weird but, in my personal experience, I always had much better results striking against larger folk than grappling. Of course, all my experience/efforts were focused on striking so maybe I was just losing at what I didn't know? Or it could be I was worried my opponent had 'Yellow Fever' and I really didn't want to be in a clinch! Not that there's anything wrong with that . . .

[cxt]

Folks

The question then becomes:

"Is your level of skill enough to overcome the differences in mass, aggession, etc.????"

Less a question of personal approach and more a question of individual skill.

[CEB]

Size always matters.

[Cufaol]

Size always matters.

Yes it does. But I'm inclined to say it is a factor which is no more important than any other factor. Speed/height/weight/muscle/age/agression/experience/opportunity/luck

They are all factors of equal importance imho.

[Nii]

The importance of each factor differs on whether you are fighting standup or on the ground.

[cxt]

Nii

I respecfully disagree--I can't see why "speed, height,weight,muscle, age,aggression,experince,opportunity, luck"

Would be much different on the ground or standing up.

Maybe "height" since that, to an extent, is factor in how long you limbs might be, and that could have an effect on the ground.

[MikeWilliams]

Of course grappling on the ground doesn't eliminate these factors altogether, but it does mitigate them... evens out the playing field a little.

Surprisingly, in pure grappling encounters, limb length doesn't seem to be a deciding factor at all, in my experience. (Although obviously it might affect your chosen tactics.)

Weight is much more of a factor, especially when in the heavier person is in top position, and especially when you're fighting under rules (like in judo) which limit the time you have to escape. But the heavier person still needs some skill, experience and balance to avoid being reversed by the smaller, lighter person. With bad technique, the heavier person's weight will work against them (E.g. the classic, and fatal, rookie mistake of keeping hips up when in side mount).

Strength and weight (and limb length) become vastly more important on the ground once you add striking to the mix.

[MarkF]

Speaking of Grappling, there is a judo player by the name of Manny Yarbrough. He is 6'11' tall, and weighs in at around 750 lb. He rarely, if ever, wins a judo tournament so he took up Sumo,

Now he wins more often, but apparently is not good enough to play Sumo professionally so he is an amateur.

He said that he originally got into Sumo to help his judo skills but it did't do that. He does win occasionally.

In judo, he is frquently thrown for a loss, so how does that play out according to the general stats stated here>

Mark

[Josh Reyer]

Now he wins more often, but apparently is not good enough to play Sumo professionally so he is an amateur.

That has less to do with Yarborough's skill and more to do with the fact that he didn't get into sumo until it was too late to join a sumo stable. Japan Sumo Association regulations are that applicants must be 15-23 years old, barring mitigating circumstances, and the mitigating circumstances rule was in place in 1984, when Yarborough's eligibility ran out.

As an amateur, he was pretty successful, winning the World Championship once, and being the runner up three times. With that kind of record, I think he could have at least spent some time in the JSA's salaried second division. But I think Konishiki pretty much indicated the heaviest you could be and still succeed at the highest ranks.

Incidently, of perhaps more interest than his amateur sumo career, Yarborough competed in three MMA events. He was defeated in the UFC by 200-lbs Keith Hackney via TKO 1994, he won a Shooto match by a smother submission in 1998, and he lost in PRIDE via submission by 183 lbs Daiju Takase, also in 1998.

[No1'sShowMonkey]

I just thought I'd weigh in after rereading the thread again.

As far as the debate about speed, power, age, weight etc. goes:

Though there is simply no substitute for being in shape, young and reckless the choice of engagement can go a long ways to determine who wins. In fact, likely the only advantage your average older combatant would have versus a younger, more eager combatant would be experience that would guide the older's choice of when, where and in our discussion's case how the combat will take place.

As I said in one of my earlier posts:

With range, angle, speed, beat, meter and rhythm all coming into play there are a great many variables at play and failing in any of these categories can result in getting hit and that hit can result in losing. When grappling a great many of these variables are reduced in importance and are supplanted by things like raw physical strength, body awareness, dominant position etc.

Essentially my point is that the traditional variables of combative situations apply. Speed, height, weight, muscle, age, aggression, experince, opportunity and luck all play into the combat; though fighting from the ground prioritizes these a bit differently than standing. Sometimes just a shift in priority is all that it takes.

When on the ground the speed that youth often provides can be smothered, aggression can peter itself out and turn to fatigue all while providing opportunity for the more patient fighter. While this is the case standing, on the ground the pace is much different and far less punishing - it is more difficult for a 'lucky' overhand right to end things while on the ground than standing.

There are times and places when a reorganizing of the engagement is called for on the basis of self preservation. We have all seen the UFC/WEC/whatever fight where someone gets knocked in the face and goes for a takedown to 'cover' their stun. Boxers move to the clinch. By making the choice to move a fight into a different range (and assuming you can pull it off) you can choose the time and place of a different kind of engagement, one that better suites your body, current mental/physical state etc.

So, in closing, as much as there are certain traits that never go away in a fight it is their order of importance that shifts. Combining a shift in initiative with a change in the order of importance of the various factors of combat is quite literally a definition of a way to victory. This is the kind of abstract idea that can apply to UFC, a back alley, or the MEU fighting in Iraq. Meet the enemy on your terms, specifically those terms where you know that you are at advantage.

As far as I can tell, in combative situations there is very little in the way of 'equality'. There are no free lunches. One of the only ways that regularly comes up to survive a sudden and devestating strike (providing you are still on your feet/concious) is to close to grapple, choose a different time and place for a different kind of fight, fight for a takedown and gather your wits. The very fact that this can and does work would suggest to me that the various attributes mentioned above are certainly not equal, applied equally throughout a fight or the final arbiters of victory.

- Chris McGaw

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~Ernest Hemingway