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Thread: Body Conditioning

  1. #496
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    From AJ's "Aikido Masters", pgs. 55-56, is an interview with Tomiki Kenji. Tomiki offers an interesting explanation for Ueshiba's "internal skills":

    "The founder sits with his legs crossed, his hands relaxed, and three students attempt to force him over by pushing against his head. They can't. Is this faked of is there some physical principle which can explain these feats?

    [Tomiki]"This is a matter of muscular training which is part of modern physical education. It's called isometrics. That is to say, we can train inner or outer groups of muscles by pushing or pulling. A person who is highly skilled at this form of training hardly exhibits any muscle movement at all during the exercise. When you can't see any movement the person is using his muscles very skillfully. But, you are making a big mistake in the educational field if you demand a similar level of expertise from everyone. If a person trains sufficiently it is possible to do such things to some degree, but, of course, there are limits to what a human body can do."


    Isometric fascia?

    Speaking of interesting explanations, the following critique of Sigman's "Teacher Test" is also worth a look:

    http://ofinterest.net/ttr/

    Be sure to read the two linked pages at the top of this review as well:

    http://ofinterest.net/ttr/SigmanChallengeframes.html
    http://ofinterest.net/ttr/episodes.html

    Enjoy,
    You think this is an opinion worth considering? This is utter nonsense or deliberate misdirection.
    These things can be discussed without prejudice, or emotion. And more advanced work is already being done, by men in short time periods

    None of the examples offered are advanced stuff, Nathan. No speculation is needed.
    There are men doing all sorts of these demonstrations. Your teacher does the head push standing up- which is harder, and he can't be pushed over and he can off balance people with his head. Since you know of high ranked and deeply initiated people- ask them. Offering such nonsensical replies as Tomiki’s seems disingenuous. I have a guy who has trained here part time for two years who’s body is changing and who demonstrates these effects, not to mention so many others who have trained here. So, please don't support this isometric muscular contraction nonsense as an explanation, it doesn't look good to even need to be specualting about it in front of so many readers who are low level and can already do these things.

    The Sigman test is basic and is a good example of a test it’s simple, and the fellow in the article has been long since debunked by many. Really, Nathan...welcome to the 90’s. And trying to discredit Mike is going to end up with you even further discrediting yourself. What concerns me is that – that ability? Is really basic stuff, and it is clearly displayed in the head push -- they are related.

    No one who understands Aiki is ever going to talk about muscular contractions to do these things, or even let it stand as a suggestion or support that counter to Mike's test.

    In a related point about discussing Daito ryu Aiki
    Why are you so defensive of something that should not and does not require defending?
    Example:
    We have visitors who are students of current teachers in Daito ryu.
    1. We continue to demonstrate what we do openly. I tell everyone I am a low level former student, of no importance whatsover.
    2. Then we continue to strongly…even insistently suggest that people go train with top Daito ryu teachers, Aikido teachers and master in the ICMA. And compare. I have sent people to feel certain DR teachers directly
    So, by pointing to the masters…the masters of these arts are able to put their expertise on display in comparison. Isn't that a good thing? Doesn’t it support your contention of superior and deeper skills? Shouldn't you be assuming that the Daito Ryu teachers and their “deeply initiated students” you keep brought up yet again and keep pointing too are going to be superior to what I and others are doing? I mean, it’s a no-brainer right?
    Why aren't you delighted to give the superior teaching methodology a chance to stand on it's own feet yet again.


    Your readership
    Among your readership here are people who have come to test and train with just three of us teaching this way. These people who have come include students of Sagawa, Kiyama, Goldberg, Okomoto, Popkin, and those who have trained in seminars with Kondo, aikido teachers in Saotome's Line, Shioda's line, Aikikai, several teachers in Chiba's line, Shirata's line, Menkyos in Koryu, and many students from ICMA. And some of them….have not been nice or always gracious in their testing. Yet what these people are feeling and experiencing is so worthwhile that 100% of them opt to train this way.

    Try not to be so over the top and out of it, that you end up suggesting that these men, most of whom have decades of training with exposure to various combinations of the above are not able to make sound judgments about feeling something that is quite beyond them. As I said many are teachers of substance who are more than capable of discerning and sniffing out propaganda, just who is telling them the truth, who never really even knew and is just posturing and being defensive and protective and who is really willing…and able…to help.

    Your attempts to discount the very real power these many men are experiencing from us isn't working. Not even close. It is compounded and made worse when and if you will finally realize these men have their own experiences in comparing us to top Japanese teachers and their methods; and then their decisions to train this way. Your continuous cautions and warnings are starting to sound a little empty.
    Training is training and truth will out. These men have their hands on your teachers and others. You need to let your teachers and their five, ten, and twenty year students demonstrate their stuff and make their own case in physical skills for themselves in what they can do...and what they have supposedly -openly- taught others.
    Let them stand for themselves.

    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 4th October 2008 at 06:26.

  2. #497
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    So, help me understand if I am interpreting this correctly Dan?

    You are taking on all challengers?
    Your's in health,
    Brian Wagner
    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

  3. #498
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    You know what, forget it. Ya'll are welcome to resume your regular thing here. What was I thinking?!?

    [post deleted]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 4th October 2008 at 06:42.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  4. #499
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by wagnerphysed View Post
    So, help me understand if I am interpreting this correctly Dan?

    You are taking on all challengers?
    What don't you get Brian?
    It's not a question of challenges. Ask yourself why you are choosing to think like that? The hostility evidenced here -is one sided. There is a growing body of like minded people training together. They are soley interested in improving themselves. Most have remained in their arts- That to include Daito ryu- and we talk, and go to dinner, you know, like every other decent human being does.

  5. #500
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    You know what, forget it. Ya'll are welcome to resume your regular thing here. What was I thinking?!?

    [post deleted]
    Nathan
    I've offered so many times to talk with you in P.M. - you have not responded. Don't you think we could have accomplished something in that venue? You have been by and large dismissive of my efforts at a discussion. Your propaganda thread wasn't too friendly. Why can't we disagree, in a more nuetral tone.
    No matter what I still appreciate your efforts here, and in many ways still share similar views as we always did. I'll be the first to offer some sort of extended hand, as I have already done in Private. I would be happy to do so again.

    Dan

  6. #501
    Mark Murray Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    While it was not my intention to "attack" Sigman here (I didn't include my own opinion of the critique), not having posting permissions didn't stop Sigman from having a whole discussion about me on his own cloaked forum.

    Regards,
    To be fair, Nathan, Mike Sigman invited you to his private forum to take part in those debates. It was my understanding that you declined. Is that not true?

  7. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    . . ., Shirata's line, . . . Yet what these people are feeling and experiencing is so worthwhile that 100% of them opt to train this way.
    Once again, and sorry if it's not Dan, if this is a reference to me I have to say that I was instructed to train "this way" more than 20 years ago and mistakenly discounted parts of it mistakenly attributing it to simple muscular development (not completely mind you, other wise I would probably have joined the early nay sayers). The experiences described were familiar to me which prompted me not to dismiss, but to check out , the Aunkai and see if what they were doing was similar with what I was instructed ( ) to do . . . it was. The pedagogical structure in which I was instructed fully integrates the means of acquisition (solo & partner exercises/training) with the (prescribed) means for application (waza/kata). I just blew it and as a consequence my structure was, and is, lacking . . . but not for long!

    This isn't a "know it all" claim BTW. I don't . . . and neither did my sensei. He provided a wonderful example of a willingness to learn from a variety of sources. Nor am I making a "we do that" statement . . . to a significant degree "we didn't" . . . my bad, not my teacher's.

    The fact that this kind of training was present in Shirata sensei's instruction is significant to me . . . Tomiki, Shirata, Shioda . . . I see a pattern there. I'm doing what I can do to ensure that I'm part of the preservation, rather than the degeneration, of all that I was taught. I'm a slow learner but I don't give up easily!

    Regards,
    Allen
    Allen Beebe

  8. #503
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    Default Questions for Dan

    Why do your body conditioning exercises and skills have to include such negative attacks on the Daito-ryu community?

    If this training is so wonderful and so advanced to what everyone else is doing, why do you have to compare and attempt to tear down Daito-ryu?

    Why can't your art stand on its own?

    If you must show how good you are as compared to other arts, why not do it through shiai or muso shugyo?

    I see the benefit in body conditioning. I see how it is incorporated into the arts that are being discussed on this thread. Rest assured this is not a result of your posts on this thread. These skill sets have always been there. This is not an arguable point. If it were arguable, you would have nothing to post on as you obtained your skills (your reported skills) through arts discussed in this thread. Your own student confirmed this with me.
    Your's in health,
    Brian Wagner
    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

  9. #504
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    To be fair, Nathan, Mike Sigman invited you to his private forum to take part in those debates. It was my understanding that you declined. Is that not true?
    http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/...a746bd70738752

    I've offered so many times to talk with you in P.M. - you have not responded. Don't you think we could have accomplished something in that venue?
    No, I don't. That is why I haven't responded. We've talked in the past, and had interesting discussions. Now you've joined in what can only be understood as an effort to discredit the current generation of Daito-ryu members, both in this (my) forum and others. I can't think of what information I would want to record in print and send to you that would be relevant. In most cases I know what you are talking about, and who you are talking about, but realize you are speaking on their behalf from a one-sided bias. Why not let people speak for themselves or handle their issues internally rather than force yourself into the political issues of other arts?

    You have been by and large dismissive of my efforts at a discussion.
    No, actually you have been largely dismissive. I've simply argued points that seem out of place - such as your claims to Daito-ryu aiki, and your previous belief that body conditioning is the same thing as aiki. Put downs and lectures are not the same thing as discussions.

    Your propaganda thread wasn't too friendly. Why can't we disagree, in a more nuetral tone.
    It wasn't supposed to be too friendly. Trying to reason with yourself and certain others on the internet has proven to be a waste of time. The only recourse is to warn the readers of what is going on - nothing short of intentional spreading of propaganda. It is what it is, and many here have had enough of it.

    If there is nothing else useful that this thread will be used for, I intend to close it. This thread consists of mostly the same things being repeated over and over, and recently, heated posts that show no promise of any sort of "discussion" of supported opinion. I for one am done with it.

    Regards,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 5th October 2008 at 04:41.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  10. #505
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    Default Open Dojo??

    I haven't read other forums to know what is written or by whom but does this mean that Dan is finally opening up a public dojo?

    I know this horse has been kicked to death but in all sincerity and with respect, Dan/Mike, why don't you hold an open seminar so all those persons interested in your training can come experience it?

    Andrew De Luna

  11. #506
    Dan Harden Guest

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    I haven't read other forums to know what is written or by whom but does this mean that Dan is finally opening up a public dojo?

    I know this horse has been kicked to death but in all sincerity and with respect, Dan/Mike, why don't you hold an open seminar so all those persons interested in your training can come experience it?

    Andrew De Luna
    Andrew
    Those involved in the discussion Ark / Mike/ Dan have had a series of public seminars. Some in-house, others do them all over- including Europe. This has been going on for 3 or 4 years now. In case you haven't been reading the thread it has involved hundreds of people, from teachers and students from both DR and Aikido, Koryu and Gendai, and the ICMA.

    There are any number MA'ers who are now training this way, and by their own writing are very glad to be doing so.
    All of this has been done without fanfare or prejudice, and has produced what many have publicly stated to be what they had been looking for in their training.
    Ark and Mike publicly teach at seminars. I select who I will share information with at private seminars.
    That said I will probably never operate an open dojo. It's not for me. Were you interested the seminars offered by these guys are usually mentioned on the boards.
    The animosity saddens me, since many friends have been made once people meet.
    Cheers
    Dan

  12. #507
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    Dan,

    "The animosity saddens me, since many friends have been made once people meet."

    "Your propaganda thread wasn't too friendly."

    "The hostility evidenced here -is one sided."

    Have you ever thought that you come across as a jerk online and bring a lot of it on yourself? All you have to do is take a look at your tasteless post on Aikiweb: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15205 (I could dig through just this God-forsakenly long thread and find many more examples).

    The fact it took a lot of private conversation to convince you it was a bad idea and finally offer a more sincere apology really makes me question your judgment and even your character. Throughout all of these recent debates with you, you have attempted to tear people down to build yourself up. It is a classic bully tactic. You've attempted to tear down Daito-ryu, several major teachers of the current generation of DR, aikido, various ICMA, etc.

    I will apologize in advance because I am going to be tactless myself and use something you said in a PM to me (something I've never done on a forum before... check out all of my posts if you don't believe me): "I am sure we[']re both dads and husbands and business people"

    Clearly you did not provide Mr. Humm any professional curtesy with your post, nor have you provided anyone else much curtesy. I'm sure Mr. Humm is a husband, dad and businessman. You expect a certain amount of respect but are unwilling to show it in return.

    The first and possibly most important part of aiki is rei or etiquette. You may be able to stop a truck with your internal body conditioning but I feel you lack proper manners. Maybe you need to study a slow kata based koryu where you can learn some. It's no wonder your former teacher has thrown you under the bus. Sadly your lack of good manners seems to have carried on to your students as well, as at least two of them saw no problems with your post on Aikiweb. This lends even more credence to Nathan's propaganda thread.

    From the above mentioned aikiweb post: "I hope no one else feels the need to enter into the discussion. It really was between Dave and I to resolve. I hope this can be more of an amicable end to a bad idea."

    Sorry Bud, we've all said and done things we wish we could take back, but once they're out there, they're out there.

    So, how can we learn from this, and turn this conversation around? How about this: find a photo of someone you think is doing a technique well, explain what is *GOOD* about it and let us all learn from that. You won't have to tear anyone down, you'll prove your point and people might even start to see what you're talking about? That whole fly, honey, vineger thing...

    BTW I've called you three times and left two VMs on your cell phone. If I've been calling at a bad time let me know what time will be better for you and I'll try then. Or feel free to call me. You should have my cell phone number, I left it in my VMs. I'd really like to have a phone conversation with you. I'm sure we can accomplish more over the phone since I don't have regular access to the net.

    Best regards,
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

  13. #508
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Hmm…
    Making a conscious choice to ignore the thousands of positive posts on aikiweb, and the many thanks and dozens of people who have posted there about training here, as well as with Mike and Ark , and so many lengthy congenial threads is a clear statement of your intent, Chris. You’re walking into a four year old discussion that has led to thousands of posts, with hundreds of examples, videos, pictures, diagrams etc. Most of it has been postive but there have been many flare-ups and difficult times in debating this topic. Humorously some of the strongest detractors now train this way. None of which centers on technique Chris.

    Turning the discussion around?
    How about you start with first reading those threads or answering what it is about this training that has caused so many teachers and students of the arts with decades of experience in both aiki arts and training with top men in it to have opted to train this way.

    Then anwer these questions
    Please note in your search of threads to make your points... all the posts of those who came to 'air their frustrations -in person." They have all ended up adopting training this way. The posts are all here. Its a 100% conversion.
    Why do you suppose that is?
    What manner of rationale can you assign to explaining this phenomenon?
    Could it mean that what we have been saying all along...actually is consistently proving to be true, as witnessed by the members here?
    Since by all acounts (as reported here) that statement appears to be true time and again, then the only flaw we are discussing is the human frailty factor; poor comminication skills, tough subject, difficult to hear, and difficult to say type things. As a stand alone factual review from visitors?
    Why is it that people who feel it and are shown the first steps-want to know how to train to get it.
    Then refute it, or acknowledge the 100% positive comments of those who went out to train?
    Then recognize that no one was talking about technique, then, or now…except you. I mentioned these same points over and over here in this thread.

    Then we can begin a turn around- if you are sincere. Otherwise it is just restating the same things that get ignored and go unanswered.
    Dan

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    Wink I guess we won't be friends!

    Dan, on countless occasions you have brought into question Kondo Sensei’s and Takeda Tokimune Sensei’s Character. Countless times you have pointed to the animosity of others. Yet here we have one example where your character is clearly questionable and you won't even address the issue (brought up by Chris Covington).

    Beyond a shadow of a doubt, your use of Dave Humm’s picture on Aikiweb was a violation of copyright law (I have the post copied to my hard drive, so careful how you respond). You committed an illegal act, not just a lack in judgment. To boot, you defamed his character in what amounts to liable. Honestly, you’re lucky the guy doesn’t sue you (if you want, I can highlight for you the three points of law necessary to prove liable, three points I feel confident you have satisfied).

    Mark Murray, publicly posting a picture does not make it public domain. You need to know this as a moderator of a very public forum. A simple Google search of Copyright Law will fill you in on this. But you seem to enjoy backing up Dan to the point of ridiculing someone who has a legitimate complaint; someone who has legitimately been wronged. Musashi, in the Go Rin No Sho clearly wrote in metaphor about how everyone has a use, much like the different types of wood. Based on your actions, what type of wood do you suppose you are? You might want to get your head clear of things that stink!

    Okay Dan, this said, do I believe that what you did was an intentional act to violate copyright law and defame someone you don’t even know? Not at all! Is it clearly an error in judgment based on the current culture of liaise fair with regard to internet regulation? Absolutely! However, why am I able to see this while you are not able to account for the cultural differences that exist in both historical and translational aspects regarding the quotes you are misinterpreting? People who have a better understanding of the schools, and differences in Koryu, you constantly ridicule and rip on as well, and or, the context laden language you can’t seem to grasp (the context aspect) have pointed this out to you to no avail.

    You’ve asked me in PM to open my mind to the possibility that you are actually a nice guy. I’m asking you publicly, based on your own recent experience, to acknowledge that you are taking your fight with Daito-ryu, mainline and Kondo Sensei in particular, out of context, based on the hearsay of individuals. Do you know what was actually said? Do you personally know the individuals in question? How do you know there is any truth to the matter?

    You, despite your apology and based on your posts up to your apology, honestly believe your critique of Dave Humm to be accurate. This is an important point to reflect on. I have no intention of leading you any further to the truth than this. Figure it out from here on your own. If you want to PM me with thoughts I will be more than happy to expand.

    Basically Dan, I believe others have tried to say this with more tact, but you and I are blunt guys so I won’t waste time hoping that you might recognize a subtle social cue. The problem as I see it is that you come off as a jerk on-line. Why would anyone go to you to train in ground path theory? Well, the answer is obvious to a small group on this forum. However, regardless of whatever talent you posses, the bottom line is Akuzawa Sensei is as talented, if not more so (I’m guessing more so), and a much nicer guy! I’ve never heard of him saying a disparaging word about anyone he has trained with, ever! Not so for Dan Harding. I’m being blunt! I’m good at it! I want you to see clearly what other people are thinking about you. Obviously these are not the people who train with you on a regular basis. But, I wouldn’t doubt that some of those who have trained with you and opened up to your theory were just too polite to tell you what they really thought of your attitude and disposition. Think about it Dan! This is an important insight to develop.

    Yeah, I know you have been around for a while Dan. In fact, I even went to a Roy Goldberg seminar in Maryland around 1992 or 1993, shortly after returning from Desert Storm. Maybe you were there? You and I are probably around the same age. We’re not so different. Yet, you seem to put yourself in a superior light? I am a highly educated individual. Do you think I am blind to the dissonance present within your arguments? Despite our similarities, we seem to be worlds apart on the issues we discuss. Oh well!

    To further highlight my education and to relate the Koryu method of teaching to modern pedagogy that supports its validity, validity that everyone outside of you and your following have been arguing in favor of, check out Jerome Brunner and his theories on Spiral Curriculum. Jerome Brunner is a well respected theorist in the field of education, Google him and his theories. It should be most enlightening.

    To be clear, I am not missing any points in your arguments. I have no intention of leading you any further to the truth than this. Figure it out from here on your own. If you want to PM me with thoughts I will be more than happy to expand. Don’t expect an answer anytime soon though; I’m a very busy man. As I don’t have any followers myself, I’ll tell you straight out, keep trying, when I do respond it will definitely be worth your effort.
    Your's in health,
    Brian Wagner
    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

  15. #510
    Mark Murray Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by wagnerphysed View Post
    Beyond a shadow of a doubt, your use of Dave Humm’s picture on Aikiweb was a violation of copyright law (I have the post copied to my hard drive, so careful how you respond). You committed an illegal act, not just a lack in judgment. To boot, you defamed his character in what amounts to liable. Honestly, you’re lucky the guy doesn’t sue you (if you want, I can highlight for you the three points of law necessary to prove liable, three points I feel confident you have satisfied).

    Mark Murray, publicly posting a picture does not make it public domain. You need to know this as a moderator of a very public forum. A simple Google search of Copyright Law will fill you in on this.
    Brian,
    I think you should do more research than just posting one Internet link for copyright issues. I think if you tried hard, you could find sections on usage of media for all kinds of things that don't violate copyright law. So, your "Beyond a shadow of a doubt" really isn't. Try fair use, what constitutes infringement, moral rights and those rights under U.S. and UK law, purposes such as criticism, etc.

    But, the one thing I did note that Dan could, if he so chose, do is to contact his local law enforcement and have them look at the possibility that you threatened him. And I quote from your words, "In the meantime, I'd watch my 6, when it comes to what I post about others, if I were you." That can be taken as a threat, legally. I would hope that you didn't post those words with that intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by wagnerphysed View Post
    But you seem to enjoy backing up Dan to the point of ridiculing someone who has a legitimate complaint; someone who has legitimately been wronged. Musashi, in the Go Rin No Sho clearly wrote in metaphor about how everyone has a use, much like the different types of wood. Based on your actions, what type of wood do you suppose you are? You might want to get your head clear of things that stink!
    Wow! I mean, martial artists for hundreds of years have been absorbed in Musashi's writings trying to decipher just what he meant. Many have spent lifetimes training to understand his words, but really, with just one broad stroke of the keyboard, you have clearly bypassed all of them and completely understand Musashi? I find that amazing. Congratulations. Next time I run across people who are confused by his words, I will definitely send them to you so that you can enlighten them.

    Quote Originally Posted by wagnerphysed View Post
    You’ve asked me in PM to open my mind to the possibility that you are actually a nice guy.
    You do realize that you're violating a rule on E-Budo to not disclose contents of PMs, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by wagnerphysed View Post
    I’m asking you publicly, based on your own recent experience, to acknowledge that you are taking your fight with Daito-ryu, mainline and Kondo Sensei in particular, out of context, based on the hearsay of individuals. Do you know what was actually said? Do you personally know the individuals in question? How do you know there is any truth to the matter?
    Huh. According to Nathan, we shouldn't listen to Nathan either. Would you be so bold to tell Nathan to acknowledge that he is taking things out of context based on the hearsay of individuals? After all, Nathan has no experience in Tokimune's teaching, Kondo's teaching, or the Seishinkai. Yet, we are supposed to listen to Nathan but not Dan? Hmmm... ?


    Quote Originally Posted by wagnerphysed View Post
    with, ever! Not so for Dan Harding. I’m being blunt! I’m good at it! I want
    It's Dan Harden. Can you at least get the name right?

    Quote Originally Posted by wagnerphysed View Post
    Yeah, I know you have been around for a while Dan. In fact, I even went to a Roy Goldberg seminar in Maryland around 1992 or 1993, shortly after returning from Desert Storm. Maybe you were there?
    Huh, after I returned from Desert Storm, I was in seminars, too. Oh, not with Roy Goldberg (which is a harder name to get right but you succeeded there). Still, it would seem to be something that you and Dan have similar background training, so, I guess my question would be ... Would you care to let people come feel you so that you can show them the *true* strength of Daito ryu? Obviously you don't feel Dan is giving a very correct or true example with his "body skills". I would imagine that it is merely a matter that you just haven't gotten out there and kept your training low key. But now that you're letting people know that you trained with Roy, and how long it's been, why, I'm sure a lot of people would love to come feel your techniques.

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