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Thread: Daito-ryu and Judo

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    Default Daito-ryu and Judo

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    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 11th June 2014 at 06:21.
    Nathan Scott
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    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Default Judo and Saigo Shiro

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    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 11th June 2014 at 06:22.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Nothing to contribute, but interesting stuff. Thanks for posting.
    Don J. Modesto
    Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
    ------------------------
    http://theaikidodojo.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott
    I was looking through the translation of Jigoro Kano's "Kodokan Judo" book and noticed a few interesting things. In regards to the Katame no Kata (grappling forms), on page 160 Kano describes a forward movement method on the ground in which the uke is kneeling with one leg raised up (closed kyoshi) and "shuffles" forward towards the opponent by over extending the forward foot and then recovering forward with the rear knee (always remaining same foot forward). Kano states "this method of moving on one knee is called shikko." Different in usage than the shikko walking method practiced in aikido, but similar in movement during the application of many of our suwariwaza kata.
    This method of movement is used in some iai schools, namely Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. Those affiliated with the ZNIR / Seitokai seem to perform the kata in a serious of steps that makes it very easy to see (video here). Even the Shimomura-ha MJER (and thus Muso Shinden Ryu and Seiteigata), which moves the back leg first during furikaburi, also includes a small but similar movement during the cut.

    I don't know what this movement is called in relation to MJER, but I will ask next practice. I believe sensei even practiced judo as a school boy (war era) so I'll pick his brain about any relationship between the movements or terms.
    無雙直傳英信流・日本古武道居合研究会 - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu ・ Nihon Kobudo Iai Kenkyukai
    東京蘆洲会 - Tokyo Roshukai

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    Default

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 11th June 2014 at 06:22.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott
    Good point. No offense intended, but I've never been a big fan of seiza-no-bu iai (suwari iai).... I am familiar with the shuffle stepping on the knee performed while performing kiriotoshi (kirioroshi?) you referenced in your post, and would guess it's pretty similar to how judo moves in Kime no Kata.
    Geez, and here I specifically posted a video from tatehiza-no-bu!! Actually, the motion is the same whether you are moving from seiza, tatehiza, or standing. And, yes, kiriotoshi = kirioroshi.
    無雙直傳英信流・日本古武道居合研究会 - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu ・ Nihon Kobudo Iai Kenkyukai
    東京蘆洲会 - Tokyo Roshukai

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 11th June 2014 at 06:22.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    After talking with sensei he mentioned that, while the footwork called 'shikko' by Jigoro Kano and that of iaido (specifically MJER) is very similiar, it is not the same. I cannot, unfortunately, report the specifics as both sensei and I were drunk at the time and it is frowned upon to practice and/or demonstrate martial arts in bars.

    The name for the footwork in MJER is "ma o tsumeru" (間を詰める ). This shouldn't be too surprising to anybody familiar with the terminology used in other parts of the MJER curriculum, particularly the tachiuchi portion; there is tsume-ai no kurai (詰合之位 ), daisho-zume no kurai (大小詰之位 ), and daisho-tachi-zume no kurai (大小立詰之位 ).

    -Eric
    無雙直傳英信流・日本古武道居合研究会 - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu ・ Nihon Kobudo Iai Kenkyukai
    東京蘆洲会 - Tokyo Roshukai

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    Default

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 11th June 2014 at 06:22.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott


    Kano was known to be concerned about incorporating practical self-defense techniques into judo. Since Takeda Sokaku was the same generation as Kano, and Ueshiba was one of his leading students, Kano sent several of his students to cross train in "aikijujutsu" under Ueshiba. I don't know if Mifune Kyuzo was among them, but it is clear to me now that there is more DR influence in some of the judo kata than I originally understood. Perhaps Mifune trained informally with some of the judo students who cross trained under Ueshiba? Mifune's "kamiwaza" (ex: kukinage) throws do appear more characteristic of aikido / Daito-ryu principles than what was typically seen by other senior Judo exponents of his time.







    Regards,


    I don't think that kyuzo Mifune did ever study Daito-Ryu but he was tge student of the famous Sakujiro "Oni" Yokoyama (on the picture above) who was one defeated by Shiro Saigo when, as a member of the Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, he challenged the recently established Kodokan.

    Since Saigo and Yokoyama became "training partners" for some time, we might well assume that Yokoyama could get some technical influence or inspiration so to speak from Saigo and that some of the Saigo's skills might also have survived through Yokoyama's instruction to his best pupil, who is also considered to be the best Judo exponent ever. So, there might be a link between Daito-ryu principles and Kyuzo Mifune's outstanding skills.
    Deception is one of Kenpo´s best technique.

    Väck ej björnen som sover


    Raphael Deutsch

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 11th June 2014 at 06:23.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Thumbs up

    Wow this is a great thread!! Thank all of you who contributed. Now I can tell this information to my students and seem really smart.

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    I think the strongest link between Daito Ryu and Judo is Kenji Tomiki. Tomiki Aikido is a synthesis of these two lineages...IMHO.

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    T. Threadgill and I have speculated that Yoshida Kotaro, of whom so little is known, perhaps had a previous or concurrent study history of Yoshin-ryu. The reasons? a) his connection with the Yoshin-ryu factions, as in the aforementioned picture b) the name he used for his own practice - Yanagi-ryu, which, like the "yo" in yoshin-ryu, means willow. Given that there is no known Yanagi-ryu connected with Yoshida previous to him (shades of Daito-ryu), it is logical to assume that this way of practicing/"ryu" started with him.
    Maybe not. Maybe he was a neophyte who learned Daito-ryu from Takeda and that's it.
    Best

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 11th June 2014 at 06:23.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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