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Thread: Body Conditioning

  1. #151
    Mark Murray Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    Hello Mark,

    It doesn't seem as though you are really reading my posts, which is disappointing, because I spent a fair amount of time choosing my phrasing so as to avoid readers assuming the worst and getting defensive.
    Nathan,
    Reading online is never as good as talking in person. We do the best we can with electrons on a screen. Maybe one of these days, I can give you a call? Or better yet, if I'm on your side of the country, I'll stop by for a visit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    I'm not stating that secrets can only be revealed by qualified instructors. You might stumble across such secrets on your own, or through a combination of training or R&D. What you won't know is how these secrets compare to a given art without being deeply initiated in it. "Aiki" appears to be the root of Daito-ryu's inner-teachings, so much of its transmission is withheld for those in the upper ranks. It doesn't mean that the rest of the teachings are useless to those studying them, just that some teachings are reserved for kyoju dairi, or shihan, etc. Some teachings are reserved only for the next head of the art. That is the nature of Japanese koryu arts.
    Not that I'm an expert or anything, but as far as I can tell, or have seen, you can't just stumble upon aiki. So, if aiki is DR's inner teaching, then I can see where the teaching could be held back for higher level students and then taught to all once they reached that level. I don't think many of us would have any problems with that. Course, there's always some that want things handed to them now.

    So, let's just set that situation aside. Now, what if a school had this aiki teaching only for the next head of the school? I dunno, but do you think there would be that many students in the school? Knowing you weren't going to get taught the whole, complete art, but only the next head of the art would get taught it? I wouldn't join, but that's just me. Course, if you didn't know that's what was happening, how would you feel when you did find out?

    And then there's the last example. Where only certain people are taught aiki and it's either random, pick and choose, or a whim. Let's say some have spent 10 or more years in an art and find out someone else had been taught differently. Or that someone new was being taught differently? And this difference was some of the aiki teachings. I think most of us find ourselves in the first example. I'd not want to be part of the second, but think about what a position you'd be in if you found yourself amidst this third example. It would suck big time. Would you still hold your ideals of the koryu in this third example?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    FWIW, I realize many on or reading this forum are saying that they never got any inner-teachings from being a student of an art. But myself and others who have written to me have in fact been exposed to most of the types of principles and/or methods being described in this thread while sticking with good teachers in a good arts. And yes, it is members such as us that are not all that driven to check everyone else out, or live on youtube, because we are ALREADY getting more information and homework than we can keep up with from within our own arts.
    Sounds great for them, Nathan. I don't know anything about it, but if that's true, then they have something like my first example above. Good school, good teacher. But, consider this. What happens if these students should find out that they aren't really working under the auspices of example 1, but are really in example 2 or 3? That you're never going to get the whole, complete art because either a) it is reserved only for the next head of the school or b) it is only taught to certain people. It's one thing to openly declare how things are done and another to keep it hidden on purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    I for one am not looking for authority to show me the way. I have someone showing me the way. Several someone's in fact. You are either qualified to speak with authority about a subject or you are not. What say we all go to a medical forum and give our opinions to them on how surgery should be conducted? Do you suppose those with medical degrees might take exception to us pushing our opinions? As another example, even though I know how to punch and kick, I publicly defer to those who specialize in such arts, since in comparison they may be considered experts, or at least professionals, in the subject, whereas I specialize in other areas. Maybe those that know me will say that my P/K is better than some professionals, but that is not for me to say.
    I know someone who is very well versed in things biblical and religious. He has conversed with people holding B.S., Masters, and Doctorate degrees in those fields. And he runs rings around them, knowing things they don't, understanding complexities they don't, and generally holding more knowledge. But, the thing is, he never went to college and doesn't hold a degree.

    Or I know someone who is quite competent in the computer field. He works better than anyone with certifications or degrees. And, no, he has neither. He's had to redo work that people with certs and degrees have done.

    So, yes, I agree. People are qualified or not. But, my point here is that you can't tell qualifications from the Internet. Which goes back to one of my more often asked questions, why haven't you gone to meet these people who are talking about aiki? Heck, Akuzawa studied in Sagawa's dojo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    You've got people writing to you saying what an "A" I am, and I've got others
    Just to clarify, Nathan. I'm not one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    Folks, how many 20 page "aiki" threads do we need in this forum? Is everyone waiting for that one perfect written definition of aiki? It ain't going to happen. The best answers are too general or vague to be of much use, and the more specific ones are often interesting but too limiting in definition and scope. It seems to me that those fanatic about aiki should simply redirect their energies toward the source (aiki arts) and learn it directly.
    Certainly, if the aiki arts taught it, I'd wholeheartedly agree. But, what if it wasn't taught at all? Let's say the Sagawa quotes are right. That he never really taught the core skills until way later in his life when he realized that they would die with him. I don't know how the Japanese would react, but Americans? Yuck. That the head of system never really planned on teaching the core skills, and didn't teach them until way later. Imagine spending 10 plus years learning an art only to find out the head of system purposefully didn't teach important, integral skills of the art. Or even just taught those important, integral skills to one student who was chosen to take over? Now, I don't know Sagawa and I haven't read the book. I'm just creating an example here. But, that would suck big time. You're a student supposedly learning a whole, complete art throughout your lifetime. And you find out that the core skills aren't taught at all, or are only taught to one person?

    Mark

  2. #152
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    Originally Posted by Nathan Scott
    Folks, how many 20 page "aiki" threads do we need in this forum? Is everyone waiting for that one perfect written definition of aiki? It ain't going to happen. The best answers are too general or vague to be of much use, and the more specific ones are often interesting but too limiting in definition and scope. It seems to me that those fanatic about aiki should simply redirect their energies toward the source (aiki arts) and learn it directly

    Seems to me that "aiki" is the only topic on E-Budo right now that is stimulating any kind of conversation, and such a passionate response on this specific thread. Why do you suppose that is?

    E-Budo has been pretty... uh... "sleepy," lately (like for the past couple years), and it could use a shot of passion to get people thinking and discussing.

    Ya know, if E-Budo were a money-making site that somehow racked up $$ for the number of posts submitted and number of "views" per thread, "aiki" -- and Dan Harden's discussions of it, in particular -- would be a moneymaker for John Lindsey. Investors would be clamoring for a piece of the action. And the moderators would get their cut, of course. Might be a different picture, then, eh?
    Cady Goldfield

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    How to write Consistently Boring and meaningless Literature unrelated to topics of discussion
    *snip*



    Actually, that was a very entertaining and spot-on accurate essay (speaking as someone who was once immersed in the world of natural-sciences academe). I only wish you had put in paragraph breaks, because my eyes, along with the rest of me, are getting old. (Of course, you intended for it to be looooong and run-on to make your point...)
    Cady Goldfield

  4. #154
    Dan Harden Guest

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    While the topic is a difficult one to discuss, aiki as a principle is everywhere in the arts. As a model and ideal it is discussed by many in several arts in both cultures. I just find allowing folks with nothing to say to hi-jack discussions and blather- to be counter productive.
    Glad my point got across. Its better then the internet version of ingnorantly burping, farting and belching... all over a thread.
    Cheers
    me

  5. #155
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Nathan
    Nice reply. Thanks for taking the time. FWIW, and of course I realize it doesn't matter much, everyone who has spoken and or written to me knows our history and what I think of you and that we happen to agree almost all of the time on many things in Budo. I don't think anyone's going to be... what did you say "calling you an A_______?" To ...my...face, anytime soon. Sorry to hear you can't say the same.
    My reply was only to point out to you that you were sometimes perhaps inadvertently talking down to folks who train this with us, as if they were among the unknowing, disloyal, and incompetent. While retaining respect for you, some of them, and me…took umbrage to that. Respect needs to work both ways particularly in an argument. I not only “heard” you, I modified the approach to help.

    Thread title
    I think it was wrong to call the thread Chinese martial arts/ Dan Harden since I am discussing tanren training. Add to that this training is being advocated by two fellas who trained mostly in Japanese arts and another who trained ICMA and those training it are mostly coming from the Japanese arts: Koryu, Daito ryu, Aikido, Uechi ryu and Judo.

    And thanks for the comparison of this thread to the fraud threads. I’m sure many will appreciate your opinion there as well. I try appreciating your views even if we can’t agree. But peppering in words like fraud, fan club, and ego, in replies isn’t necessary. There is no fan club, No one is being defrauded by me Ark or Sigman, and the ego is in conquering failure. I doubt you’ll find any of the accomplished Japanese budo men training this appreciating your responses, Nathan. In my case no money exchanges hands, in their case they travel cross-continents and are still barely covering expenses. Why?To help folks. Folks who, to a man, consider this essential to what…they…do.
    In most cases, these..folks…are experienced artists, in many cases teachers themselves, some high ranked and deeply initiated who are training this way.

    Independant contracting
    You cite the only two plausible options that come to your mind and leave out others. Other options do indeed exists.

    I am addressing a difficult topic. One that will endear me to no one, nor garner support. Personally, I have never studied a Chinese art, nor invented anything. What I do, I was taught to do, and I built on it through-some-personal R&D. If you want to address why we bring up what others are saying about this method- it is for the simple reason that it is….artless. It is a body method sans any particular art. We do so not only to validate and discuss it as a method, but to let folks know it helps across the board. How is it by some very strange and completely weird phenomenon we can stand in rooms with master level teachers from cross cultures and have them be flummoxed as to how we can know what we know, in our bodies? I have had this happen to me many times. Why is that?

    No one anywhere is saying we or I “do” this or that art. We are saying this training makes these arts come alive. And accomplished folks in these arts say it to …us. You state only those “deeply initiated” can say what their art is or does. Fair enough. I think you are wrong, but fair enough, so to address YOUR opinion, I offered some observations of folks from a myriad of styles in support of a counter opinion to your own. I have continually stated that folks very highly ranked in their arts have stated this is …it. As for DR? Both Ark and I have had students of teachers like Sagawa, Kiyama, and Okomoto come and train and state flatly that this feels like what their teachers feel like and they see training it change and greatly improve what they are trying to accomplish in their art. Sagawa’s men stated their opinion of a Taiji teacher as well. That HE was doing Daito ryu aiki. Their views are their own. How do they qualify it? They train it. Oddly the way to train it-solo tanren-is what Sagawa said is a secret to his art. Here, just now ,in a strange paradox you claim I cannot speak to arts that do aiki as it takes a “deep initiation” to know aiki. There simply is no other way to know, or know you know..in your view. Yet...you... claim to already know the things I write about, and that, without really "knowing" what I do. How'd that happen?
    We are trying to tell people there is a way to train the body that is key and core to these many arts. Oddly, Shihan, Menkyo, 6th dan down to nidan all seem to agree once they have felt it. They, are qualified to say what ever they like, and for the strangest reason they have chosen to spend many agonizing hours burning it in.
    Goals here
    I'm done qualifying who is training it, and why. For anyone who wants to read it there is enough here, I'll just be repeating. Overall, I think the remainder of the thread should be discussing how it has affected those who train it, or their views about it, and I'll try to keep talking about what it is and how it makes things come together.
    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 27th December 2007 at 16:44.

  6. #156
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Thread title
    I think a more appropriate title is Tanren training. The only argument then can be from which art, and we can say from no art or many arts ...whatever. But it is about tanren, mostly done by those in the Japanese arts.
    What do you think?

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    Default So How About a Definition of Tanren?

    Dan,
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harden View Post
    Edit
    Thread title
    I think a more appropriate title is Tanren training. The only argument then can be from which art, and we can say from no art or many arts ...whatever. But it is about tanren, mostly done by those in the Japanese arts.
    What do you think?
    I agree --- and a definition of tanren would help to move the discussion forward. I offered one back in post 72, when I described tanren as "a process of forging and strengthening the body and spirit for martial purposes, through the mindful repetition of specific movements and stances. It may involve an apparatus (such as a suburito or a weight), a fixed physical reference (such as a wall or a plumb line), or even another person working with "cooperative resistance" (as in Uechi-ryu's kotekitae [arm-rubbing and pounding, leg pounding] or aikido's kokyu tanden ho)." I did not intend that to be the last word on the subject, and I hope that you and others will offer your definitions as well.

    For those of you who question the importance of definitions, especially in the realm of speech, I refer you to Plato's Meno. A serviceable (and free) translation is available at http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/meno.html.

    Sincerely,

    Jim

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    Well I can see we are just going to continue talking in circles about these points, for whatever reason. I don't see how much more plainly I can explain what I'm objecting to, but I'll address some of the last comments on the way out.

    Are you suggesting that the "aiki arts" are the only source for "aiki?" I don't agree with that. "Aiki" is known by various people of different cultures by various names. That doesn't mean it's not the same feeling.
    No. I'm not. In the bazillion words I've written in this thread I've never said it couldn't exist elsewhere, or that components of what certain arts call aiki don't share them. However, aiki is defined in various ways, and at various levels of initiation. To say that "aiki" is known by various people of different cultures imples that everyone uses the word the same way, *which is what I'm objecting to*. How about just using English? What is so hard about that?

    I think I remember reading about a sumo wrestler that studied with O-sensei saying something about feeling defeated the moment he grabbed him.
    I remember a similar quote coming from Judo in regards to Saigo Shiro, who was the adopted son of Saigo Tanomo. But in any event, I thought I illustrated that many arts, weapon arts in particular, condition the tanden. I described one method in which Ueshiba conditioned his tanden, and Dan scoffed it off as "nonsense". Maybe Ueshiba just thought it was fun to hit a pile of sticks repeatedly?

    No waza, just immediate feedback from some internal source of power. I think that is "aiki" and I think that is what Dan is teaching. That is the flavor of aiki I would like to develop.
    "I think that is aiki" sounds like your opinion, and you're welcome to it. Nicely phrased. Folks, see how easy it is to give an opinion without stating something as (an unsupported) fact?

    So, let's just set that situation aside. Now, what if a school had this aiki teaching only for the next head of the school? I dunno, but do you think there would be that many students in the school? Knowing you weren't going to get taught the whole, complete art, but only the next head of the art would get taught it? I wouldn't join, but that's just me. Course, if you didn't know that's what was happening, how would you feel when you did find out?
    Can anyone expect to learn "everything" from their teacher/art? Even in modern arts, the vast majority of teachers don't teach "everything". As far as aiki goes, many koryu would view this teaching (as DR appears to do) as it's highest gokui. Daito-ryu used to just be called jujutsu, so if you joined the art, you would be joining the art to learn jujutsu. There are many people who spend their whole lives studying various styles of jujutsu, or judo for that matter, that don't feel ripped off. DR is now called "aikijujutsu", so maybe students might feel like they have a right to be taught aiki. Obviously we are speaking in general terms here when it comes to "how koryu teachers teach", and "koryu arts", as they all vary to some degree.

    And then there's the last example. Where only certain people are taught aiki and it's either random, pick and choose, or a whim.
    What does a teacher look for in a qualified student? Probably someone who, above paying their annual or monthly dues, trains hard with them regularly; is clearly focusing their attention on what is being taught; has the appropriate character; is trusted; and is shown deep commitment to the art - and its well being. Would such a student, given enough time, have any reason to be deprived of the advanced level teachings? There is a problem within DR in particular with members learning various levels of aiki and developing a huge ego. Ego/power corrupts, and nobody is served by it. Especially the art when the members quit to give away what they were taught without discretion. Instead of succeeding in forging a gifted budo-ka, who is an asset and appropriate representative of the art, you might have ended up producing a monster who is exploiting the teachings for their own fame. And no, I'm not implying this about anyone on this thread, so don't get all defensive and flame me. I'm speaking in general.

    DR may be guarding their aiki seriously, but maybe its for a good reason. But each generation of students since Sokaku has produced a growing number of exponents that are skilled in DR aiki, and that's a fact. Paying membership dues does not give anyone special rights. But being a good "student" will allow you to learn the art in the way it was designed to be learned. Of course, most would agree that finding the right teacher is more important than finding the right art. IMO there are way too many people teaching MA right now that should have stayed a student longer, so choose carefully and change if you loose confidence in their motives.

    I know someone who is very well versed in things biblical and religious. He has conversed with people holding B.S., Masters, and Doctorate degrees in those fields. And he runs rings around them, knowing things they don't, understanding complexities they don't, and generally holding more knowledge. But, the thing is, he never went to college and doesn't hold a degree.
    I'm not saying it is impossible to know more than someone more qualified than you. What I'm saying is that those more qualified than you will naturally take exception to someone with little or not qualifications *telling them* how things are. Why not state your points as opinions, such as "I think", and have those more qualified say "Good point, tell me more"? I'm talking about approach and attitude, and as I said, dissuading possible misinformation from being spread about specific arts.

    Heck, Akuzawa studied in Sagawa's dojo.
    If you're going to bring that up, then go ahead and tell us how long he studied there, and during what period of time? Unless I forgot or missed it, this hasn't been disclosed yet. I've been told by a credible source that it generally takes 2-3 years to get through the ichigen waza (first of ten levels of teachings), which is a necessary step before reaching black belt. The first 3 years in teh Sagawa dojo apparently focuses on foundational work, so depth of initiation is very limited. I've also heard that Sagawa didn't throw many of his students, only those who were most senior or showed the attitude and spirit he was looking for. So just because someone was a member of his dojo does not mean they felt his technique. It sounds like some felt his technique many times, others only a few times, and many not at all. This is why I ask now, and have asked before. I've been told that many people joined the Sagawa dojo during the latter years of his life, which is something that happens with every famous teacher prior to their passing. So there are probably a great many people in Japan who can say they were students of Sagawa Sensei. Disclaimer again - that's not to say that Akuzawa doesn't have skills, or is teachings something worthless. But if his time there was short maybe it's a credit he should keep within his student base.

    Seems to me that "aiki" is the only topic on E-Budo right now that is stimulating any kind of conversation, and such a passionate response on this specific thread. Why do you suppose that is?
    Aiki is of course a popular topic. Many, including Sagawa, believe that it can't be talked or written about in a useful way. While interesting points are made in such discussions, they usually result in many pages of heated arguments that do not bring us any closer to understanding what "aiki" is, as defined by the various arts and exponents.

    Furthermore, Daito-ryu is an extant art that is, like many, trying to survive to the next generation. It's not fair to those in the arts trying to contribute towards their survival and development to exploit their inner teachings publicly. Yeah I know many non-members don't care, but after these arts are gone, they are gone. All the mixed martial artists will only be able to research documents and possibly video footage to understand what these arts were once like, unlike today where they can meet and talk with exponents directly. And for an art like DR that has internal elements, that will always fall way short of the hand-to-hand experience. So yeah, aside from expressing opinions, I think long drawn out discussions about aiki is a bad idea (unless you call it something else).

    Ya know, if E-Budo were a money-making site that somehow racked up $$ for the number of posts submitted and number of "views" per thread, "aiki" -- and Dan Harden's discussions of it, in particular -- would be a moneymaker for John Lindsey. Investors would be clamoring for a piece of the action. And the moderators would get their cut, of course. Might be a different picture, then, eh?
    Who cares? If e-budo existed as a business for the purpose of generating hits for money, I for one wouldn't be here. The same for martial arts. Even in arts I've been in that have commercial elements to them I've resisted studying/teaching them as a business. I don't believe budo can be taught that way, so the day that becomes impossible is when I discontinue affiliations. I'd rather see the AJJ forum slow than flood it with heated arguments and misleading information.

    Nice reply. Thanks for taking the time. FWIW, and of course I realize it doesn't matter much, everyone who has spoken and or written to me knows our history and what I think of you and that we happen to agree almost all of the time on many things in Budo. I don't think anyone's going to be... what did you say "calling you an A_______?" To ...my...face, anytime soon. Sorry to hear you can't say the same.
    I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean. You are the one who posted that you had all these people writing to you pissed off at what I'm posting. I didn't get defensive about it, why are you? When it comes to confrontations, I've got a thick skin, and nothing to prove. I get plenty of that at work.

    Oddly, Shihan, Menkyo, 6th dan down to nidan all seem to agree once they have felt it. They, are qualified to say what ever they like, and for the strangest reason they have chosen to spend many agonizing hours burning it in.
    They all agree that it fits within what they understand aiki to be. Great. I suspect many of these are from aikido, which has a more commonly found definition of what aiki is. Okamoto from the Roppokai is credited as innovating what he learned from Horikawa with his own ideas. It may be good stuff, but how much has it changed from the original teachings? I suspect the menkyo you keep mentioning is licensed in an art that does not specialize in aiki, and may have a definition for what they call aiki that is not consistent with all the other definitions out there. I'm not saying that your people aren't qualified in their opinions, but pointing out that the feedback you keep posting up here is not as black and white as you are making it sound.

    Enjoy the rest of this thread,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Default Akuzawa

    I stand erected - it looks like someone has already posted that Akuzawa was enrolled at the Sagawa dojo for a total of 2-3 years (95 or 96 to 1998), up until Sagawa's death.

    FWIW,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 27th December 2007 at 21:32.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  10. #160
    Dan Harden Guest

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    I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean. You are the one who posted that you had all these people writing to you pissed off at what I'm posting. I didn't get defensive about it, why are you? When it comes to confrontations, I've got a thick skin, and nothing to prove. I get plenty of that at work.
    Uhm..It meant that no one was pissed, but that they took exception to what they thought you were saying about folks training this way as to include them. No one used your word a______and they wouldn't get away with it with me. Sorry you took it the wrong way, Nathan I...was just trying to be er...nice big fella. It's also why I told you I "heard" you about certain issues and was modifying my approach to the topic. Don't lose your normally cheery internet self will ya.
    Thank you again.

    With that folks can we sort of switch now and stop talking about qualifyers and whos who, and just talk about how it has effected their training. Mark? Tim? Ron? Josh, Rob, Stan, Chris, Murray, Jeremy and a host of lurkers? Isn't that the real point?
    Cheers and happy holidays
    Dan

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    Quote:
    Ya know, if E-Budo were a money-making site that somehow racked up $$ for the number of posts submitted and number of "views" per thread, "aiki" -- and Dan Harden's discussions of it, in particular -- would be a moneymaker for John Lindsey. Investors would be clamoring for a piece of the action. And the moderators would get their cut, of course. Might be a different picture, then, eh?

    Who cares? If e-budo existed as a business for the purpose of generating hits for money, I for one wouldn't be here. The same for martial arts. Even in arts I've been in that have commercial elements to them I've resisted studying/teaching them as a business. I don't believe budo can be taught that way, so the day that becomes impossible is when I discontinue affiliations. I'd rather see the AJJ forum slow than flood it with heated arguments and misleading information.

    Nathan, that paragraph was meant as a joke. Hence, the smilie. Oy.
    Happy Holidays!
    Cady Goldfield

  12. #162
    Dan Harden Guest

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    The joining of opposites. in-yo-ho
    The body works best when it is supported by opposing tensions. These work in front and back, and side and side and up and down. People do not move this way naturally, neither do most martial artists. You can watch it on video and see it, and feel it , in an instant, at a touch or moment in time. Once you feel it, and are shown how to do it you see the sense of it, at least theoretically. When you are walked though steps of it in a gradual manner and learn to manipulate it, there is a great logic to it as a support system. This union of opposites has a reason for being. It both supports and manipulates at the same time. So that it, in and of itself, within the body, “the duality held” - say in stasis, becomes a “duality in application.” What keep me supported, manipulates what comes in. This is the birth of….joining energy. For many it’s a cool symbol, an ethereal, spiritual model or a hokey drawing to be placed on a placard or dojo walls, but as a method to train the body it is deep. So how do we suppose a held tautness, can be completely relaxed and how does that happen in the first place? And what would create a joining energy between people?
    How is this different from the same idea in breathing? How could breathing be powerful?
    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 27th December 2007 at 23:12.

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    Default

    Ok, i'm gonna butt in here where I don't belong i'm sure and give my unsolicited opinion. Hey it's the internet, what'cha gonna do?

    There is way too much lofty abstract talk in this thread and not enough talk about functional ways to supposedly gain 'aiki' or whatever you choose to call this skill.

    I really think that this level of abstraction doesn't do the subject justice on the internet, maybe it'd be better to to talk methodology and actual excercises.

    The excuse of "well you've got to feel it " is nonsense here, if that's the bottom line then there is no point in conversing about this in the first place. I am fully convinced by the efficacy of these kinds of training methods, i've been exposed to something like them in Karate (of all places huh?!!) and I have no question of it's importance, however it seems really fruitless to just wax philosophical on it if people aren't gonna be discussing methods. It gives the whole conversation a creepy "I have the secrets" feel.

    Anyway that is my unsolicited opinion as someone with virtually no 'aiki' who does not practice Aikido, Aikijujutsu, or CMA. Lol.
    Zachariah Zinn

  14. #164
    Dan Harden Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ZachZinn View Post
    I really think that this level of abstraction doesn't do the subject justice on the internet, maybe it'd be better to to talk methodology and actual excercises.

    The excuse of "well you've got to feel it " is nonsense here, if that's the bottom line then there is no point in conversing about this in the first place. I am fully convinced by the efficacy of these kinds of training methods, i've been exposed to something like them in Karate (of all places huh?!!) and I have no question of it's importance, however it seems really fruitless to just wax philosophical on it if people aren't gonna be discussing methods. It gives the whole conversation a creepy "I have the secrets" feel.

    Anyway that is my unsolicited opinion as someone with virtually no 'aiki' who does not practice Aikido, Aikijujutsu, or CMA. Lol.
    Mr. Zinn
    If you read, you will see some of us are NOT surprised to see that you have found or heard of some of this in Karate. Yes it is very important but the jist of the reason behind talking about it is not that you leanr it on the net-you can't. You simply can't, but rather to get the word out that it
    a. Exists at all.
    b. Is relevant to the arts
    c. Where to go where people will actuallu show you what to do to achieve it.
    Even then its going to take years to accomplish something substantial, maybe shorter for some folks with more "time-in" than others.

    As for the creepy "I've got the secrets" feel? Well there are secrets in the arts. It just doesn't mean others don't know them as well. The only way to get em is to join up, train, wait to possibly be sifted and selected (or not) and find out. Or...if you hear of folks with unusual skills and power go check em out. Maybe they will teach you how they got there.
    Either way its going to be up to you. And chances are...you'd never have found out who or where alternatives may be had, if it were not for these kinds of.....discussions.
    Cheers
    Dan

  15. #165
    Mark Murray Guest

    Default Body Conditioning and Training part I

    Pushing.

    Well, I can't say that I can do, with any regularity, the stuff I've experienced. I have my moments, but they haven't gotten to the point where I can do them consistently. With that said ...

    I've read reports and seen video where Ueshiba lets other people test him by having them push on him. Seated or standing. In one video, he's seated and then rocks back and lifts his legs. I initially thought that he was being off balanced a bit, but later read reports that he was showing off.

    In Harrison's book, Kunishige has Harrison pull on his ears as hard as Harrison can to try to move him. No effect.

    Harrison's book again recounts a similar tale, only it regarded Jiro Nango and a push to the chest. The results were the same. Jiro Nango could not be pushed over.

    There was a post about Tomiki offering his wrist/hand and letting people try to do whatever they wanted and they couldn't do anything. Shioda and Tohei used it, too.

    Many Chinese did it. There are a lot of accounts of people with body conditioning skills doing this as some sort of test to show levels of skill.

    I had the pleasure of testing this against Dan. And found that, no, I couldn't push him over. The feeling is sort of like pushing a wall and a void at the same time. You feel the body, yet it isn't moving, and yet you feel like you're pushing but you don't know where the force is going.

    Can I do this now? Not really. Yet. I know it can be done, though. Not because Dan can do it. Not because Dan had me doing it at his dojo. Not because his students can do it. But, because, one time, at my dojo, with a student there who weighs 250, I did it. Feet side by side and stood there while the 250 pound student pushed against my chest with a lot of force. And it didn't feel like I had any force/push on my chest. Seeing it and feeling it are one thing. Doing it is a world of difference.

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