Body Conditioning

[Dan Harden]

I suppose this is the part of the post where I should emphasize that it is not at all necessary to understand any of this in order to actually do these sorts of demos; I doubt Ueshiba or Shioda thought much about things in these terms.

Again...your description doesn't cut it for me, and I imagine for others here who can actually do things. Can you? Can you stand there and have a large guy push on your chest horizontally-and remain standing without flexing? How about upward and still stand there? How about pushing on your head? How about not offering tactical reistance but give a judoka your body and have him not be able to throw you? Can you do it? Care to describe what you are doing?
I'm sure there are guys who know you and train with you that can verify you can do these things and have been doing them.
If not why not just say these are your theories?
Cheers
Dan

[Dan Harden]

Chris, Jeremy thanks for sharing a bit of your journey with the internal training. Hopefully you will continue.
FWIW, it was not my intent to take anything away from Ark or Mike, This thread title was not of my making. I know this is Japanese tanren, I also know its Chinese tanren as well, but all of us are using it in everything including; Koryu, Aikido Daito ryu, Judo. Karate, and MMA, so the "Body conditioning" title was a "nuetral" choice by the moderator. My name on it, while ridiculous, at least helps a host of folks I know who google and follow my poor writings and journey. I want to write a bit more about discoveries and uses I have seen folks make, and I'll do so later.

[Mark Murray]

Chris, Jeremy thanks for sharing a bit of your journey with the internal training. Hopefully you will continue.
FWIW, it was not my intent to take anything away from Ark or Mike, This thread title was not of my making. I know this is Japanese tanren, I also know its Chinese tanren as well, but all of us are using it in everything including; Koryu, Aikido Daito ryu, Judo. Karate, and MMA, so the "Body conditioning" title was a "nuetral" choice by the moderator. My name on it, while ridiculous, at least helps a host of folks I know who google and follow my poor writings and journey. I want to write a bit more about discoveries and uses I have seen folks make, and I'll do so later.

Ditto to Jeremy and Chris. Thanks for the posts.

I wanted to post some applications or usages that I can see for Aikido, but probably not tonight. Maybe tomorrow...

[Tom H.]

If the person being pushed wishes to remain in place, both the net external forces and torques must be roughly zero (otherwise, there would be appreciable translation or rotation, respectively, of the person's body).

That's a refreshingly direct statement of the applicable physics. I was a big fan of that approach, but now (that I'm making significant measurable progress), I do not find understanding the real physics useful. I care more about capturing, identifying, and repeating feelings and phenomena,then testing the results in various controlled or live settings.

None of the training methodologies I have encountered, as far as I've been able to understand or benefit from them, focus very much on mechanical analysis. Those methods include traditional systems like taiji, xing-yi, aikido, as well as modern methods like Aunkai. I haven't ruled out the possibility that a static or dynamic mechanical analysis might lead to a wildly successful training approach, but it's rather irrelevant to my training now.

Maybe this is another way of saying it: the sum of the forces equals mass times acceleration; the sum of the moments has an equivalent equal, but these are boundary conditions. They do not tell you very much about what to do inside your body, or how to do it. My personal opinion is that anyone brave enough to start on deeper mechanical analysis will quickly cross into the control system (i.e. spine, brain, and nervous system), and hit issues in controls (e.g. non-linear feedback) as well as psychology (e.g. attention and arousal), and quickly get too messy for anyone but PhD students and their ilk.

The good news, I think, is that your kind of analytic approach can pay off handsomely if you get the chance to apply it to the skill-building myself, Dan, and others are talking about.

[R_Garrelts]

None of the training methodologies I have encountered, as far as I've been able to understand or benefit from them, focus very much on mechanical analysis. Those methods include traditional systems like taiji, xing-yi, aikido, as well as modern methods like Aunkai. I haven't ruled out the possibility that a static or dynamic mechanical analysis might lead to a wildly successful training approach, but it's rather irrelevant to my training now.

Nothing I was taught in the dojo focused very much on mechanical analysis either. You might be surprised to hear this, but I don't think an analytical approach is going to revolutionize much of anything in the martial arts. As I said before, this is really more of a sanity check for me as well as a way to avoid spending time training in something that is based on questionable theory. In karate, for example, every so often one hears about the efficacy of "snapping" punches (pulling your punches back as they make contact with the opponent). There is usually some accompanying theoretical justification for this ("the force is greater since the contact time is smaller," etc.), and, if I didn't have much knowledge of physics, I might be inclined to spend a bunch of time training this stuff. After all, some of the people who espouse "snapping" punches can hit pretty hard, and, if I can't get it to work, I might just decide that it is simply because I haven't spent enough time practicing. It would probably never occur to me that those instructors might be hitting hard in spite of their insistence on snapping punches rather than because of it.

On the other hand, I have had some minor successes specifically because of an analytical approach: My karate instructor used to do a demonstration where he would stand on one leg and have someone (generally the strongest person in the dojo) push horizontally against his hand as hard as they could--the instructor, of course, remained stationary. He would then explain the theory he was taught ("grounding forces") even though he, admittedly, couldn't vouch for its validity. He also described a demonstration performed by his own teacher which involved sitting on a folding chair, rocking it onto its back two legs, and having a student (or students) push on the demonstrator's forehead. I wasn't able to do either demo consistently until I had thought about the physics involved. (Heck, I couldn't even bring myself to try the second demo until I was confident I understood the physics.)

In the end, though, was it really that important to learn to do those demos? Probably not (that's why I call it a minor success), but it was a fun puzzle--and I like trying to figure out how counter-intuitive things like that work.

Maybe this is another way of saying it: the sum of the forces equals mass times acceleration; the sum of the moments has an equivalent equal, but these are boundary conditions. They do not tell you very much about what to do inside your body, or how to do it. My personal opinion is that anyone brave enough to start on deeper mechanical analysis will quickly cross into the control system (i.e. spine, brain, and nervous system), and hit issues in controls (e.g. non-linear feedback) as well as psychology (e.g. attention and arousal), and quickly get too messy for anyone but PhD students and their ilk.

Agreed 100%. But I was only pointing out that lifting the legs in the seated push demonstration doesn't require more skill than not doing so. Let's not make it so complicated just yet.

[Samurai Jack]

After a lot of proclamations, discussion and testimonials here, and the discussion and critiques posted on Aikiweb in 2006 http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11178 (long thread worth reading through)

What are we really talking about here is performance martial arts stunts, which had little or no combat relevance. But, have more to do with persuading others of supernatural or extraordinary power for fame or profit. The history of this probably goes as far back almost to the start of civilization. The Chinese martial arts is probably the most illustrious with a period where magical and supernatural demonstrations where saturating. These performance stunts and demonstrations that entertained and Wowed audiences clearly had a long lasting impact. Another influential player for such things is India. Audiences and those who are unable or deigned subscribe to scientific perception and skepticism, by default subscribe to supernatural performances of martial arts stunts. They walk away totally convinced of what they see. Those who assist lacking the understanding of the tricks often are fanatical believers and followers. Stunts success often attributed to exotic broad and ambiguous terms as Chi, and Ki. -Or in this case In-Yo, which is the Japanese translation for Ying and Yang, defined in western terms simply as polar opposites, or dualism; a state in which there are two distinct parts which are opposites.- The real constitution of these terms of Chi and Ki is anyone’s guess. Finding the constitution of these terms is not the point, but rather noting that such blanket terms lends to mystical powers that are credited to these stunts. Yet, in reality, Chi etc. usually is nothing more than physics in play as described in early western martial arts by E. Barton-Wright founder of Barjitsu, in Pearson's Magazine 1899, v. 7, pp. 59-66, titled How to Pose as a Strong Man. This article is reprinted in Classical Fighting Arts v. 2, No 12, (Issue 35), pp 41-45. -great intro and commentary by Harry Cook. That explains the use of physics to explain the illusion of what has been considered feats of chi.

I remember when a young man, I seen my first demonstration of performance martial arts. It was done a by a touring Korean martial arts team. All the feats such as being unable to push a person over, move a person standing from one spot, or being able to lift a man in the air with ease by several others then on a second attempt unable, and other such feats as Bruce’s Lee’s famed 1” punch, among other strength tricks where preformed. They also used individuals from the audiences with mixed success. All aquatinted into the minds of the audience as supernatural martial art power. Not having knowledge to such tricks of the interplay of physics, no having a fully formed scientific education, I was easily impressed of the existence of such power.

These feats of chi power demonstrations i.e. not being able to push a person over, also require psychological phenomenon, such as the Ideomotor effect or also known as Ideokinetics. Never doing these demonstrations does a participant think to change the angle or movement requested to a more advantageous one when a stunt is being preformed, such as being unable to move a person, or push a person over. The participant is willing to be compliant and imperceptive in behavior to see the result. If the performer like a magician makes a suggestion it is followed willingly though. Usually the participant is asked to push or lift the demonstrator in a way that is counter to move or lift. This is exemplified in Barton’s article. The participant is not asked to lift a person from around the waist and hoist them up. But, rather from behind underneath elbows and forearms of the performer that are parallel to the floor. The principles in play make the trick effective are physics, posture (body alignment), relaxation and isometric muscle tension. Oh the participant isn’t a person who is a Power Lifter, and is some one of equal or smaller frame.

Such martial arts tricks of supernatural power look great with willing and compliant participants. What they lack and usually escapes most of us, is the lack of effectiveness and performance under combative situations. When attacked in your home or on the street, and not being able to be moved is not impressive with the guy swing a baseball bat, or brandishing a handgun, or who doesn’t think of pushing you off where you stand but rather taking your head off with a right cross, or jumps you from the behind.

We really have to keep things in perspective, and those who have been in the martial arts for years, and take the arts seriously know all of this. They know martial arts parlor tricks purpose is for some to have fun or fame to show the new students, prospecting students, the unsuspecting public, or those martial artist who haven’t had experience with such things yet. I don’t think those of responsible and quality martial arts training and background allow these performers to confuse real martial arts with their stage acts. It is dangerous and irresponsible.

I understand that you will always have such people preforming these stage acts in the martial arts. If we are going to credit them in any way it should be in the area of entertainment and not martial arts.

Commentary End.

[Kendoguy9]

Hey Dan,

I had some well thought out commentas about training and what is going on when I train in kata and solo, but your quote below rubbed me the wrong way:

"Again...your description doesn't cut it for me, and I imagine for others here who can actually do things. Can you? Can you stand there and have a large guy push on your chest horizontally-and remain standing without flexing? How about upward and still stand there? How about pushing on your head? How about not offering tactical reistance but give a judoka your body and have him not be able to throw you? Can you do it? Care to describe what you are doing?"

Dan care to explain what you are doing?

You come on here trying to open discussion about Chinese methods in the aikijujutsu forum and claim you just want to make friends with people and share and help people grow. Instead of being friendly, you challenge anyone who mentions this stuff in terms other then doing solo training like yours. Richard, I believe was explaining it in terms of physics (I confess I was lost but then I'm not that smart) and you offer challenges and doubt. The only people you are friendly to in this post and don't stubbornly confront are your own students. I don't think you want to discuss methods of training (in fact you haven't really offered any training methods to help anyone improve, you only talk about how great your methods are and then quote Sagawa to back you up) I think you want your friends and students to come on here and post how great your methods are. Too bad, you probably have interesting insight to share.

So can you learn to do this stuff you talk about from doing forms and partner practice? Yes. When I did Taiji Chuan there was an elderly lady who was very small and frail. She could barely finish the form without sitting down to rest. The only solo training she did was the form. She also did push hands. Our tecaher didn't offer any extra methods to develop internal power because we were learning at a college, and he said this wasn't for fighting but for health. Anyway the elderly lady pushed me (I was about 18-19 at the time and worked out a lot) and threw me back about 3-4 feet. She never did any other martial arts and trained just a year or two more then I had. This fa jing aiki what ever you're calling it can be developed through forms and partner practice. Are there other ways to do it? Yeah of course. I'm sure your method works, too. It isn't as rare as you may think it is. Or maybe I've just been lucky with the people I've met?

So, how does your tanren taiso method and kokyu affect seme, zanshin, metsuke, etc? Aiki methods you don't make contact with (and no I'm not talking about silly aiki magic throws)? Just curious.

BTW, can you quit with the elipses? It... really makes... your stuff... hard to read...

Happy New Year,

[Mark Murray]

After a lot of proclamations, discussion and testimonials here, and the discussion and critiques posted on Aikiweb in 2006 http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11178 (long thread worth reading through)

What are we really talking about here is performance martial arts stunts, which had little or no combat relevance.

Jack,
That reference is the thread I started on AikiWeb.

As to your latter point. Well, If that's what you believe, then I certainly won't try to change your mind. And if that's truly what you think, I wonder if you could let the thread go forward without interruption for those of us who don't hold your viewpoint? Some of us believe just the opposite, that the body conditioning training has very applicable combat relevance. So, instead of sidetracking the thread, would you let us continue the discussion unhampered?

Thanks,
Mark

[Samurai Jack]

Mark, being unhampered would be allowing Dan Harding to proclaim ideas as his without critical review then unhampered is the word of the day.

Everything Dan has claimed is nothing new and is found in other arts. And his skills as described fall into performance art. Which he could be very good at.

In-Yo, is the Japan translation for Ying and Yang. Principles used in Judo as push and pull etc. Much of what Dan says and concerning In-Yo is also found in push-hands. Body condition is I agree something lost in modern martial arts, though I perfer others I have more confidence in explain it. Dan feels his gleening from Segawa provides authory on the subject of body conditioning. Therefore, I would like Dan to expound futher in detail, give a seminar, put it on Youtube. Though he will not. This makes it difficult to understand and make accurate evaluations on his skills, abilities, and knowledge. Which is always done when people make public claims. I just can't take testimonials alone.


Mark, I honestly believe, what you experienced to you is substanstancial. You are fanatical in the original positive sense, of Dan's abilities, so clearly he impressed you. I don't debate that. But you have to understand that doesn't mean we all should take his word for it. You must allow us to test the waters the only way that Dan is allowing. He does a lot of posting on his abilities, and resently due to the recent translation of Segawa's book latched on to the Tanren term. And there is no way that those of us who read Dan's posts he puts out so well and so thought out can determine the truth. Dan wants us to accept his claims and agenda based on his words and the words of a select few. You have to allot me or others to test and try and determine what the truth is.

[Dan Harden]

Chris
You state you couldn't understand Richards physics description- it was over your head. I stated it doesn't cut it for me either. So?
I asked him if he could do it and if he could- to explain it in simple terms.
The differences may be, I have had a host of men try and explain this stuff by means of physics who can't do much of anything at all. Well, really nothing at all. We have been through two years of another fellow trying the exact same process but he willingly admits he cannot do the things many men wrote in they had felt and experienced in the hands of guys who can use these skills. And FWIW, the guy who responded to Richard-Tom H.- who happens to agree with the technical analysis and who himself is able to do some of these things in his body stated flatly that it doesn’t begin to cut it for him either. And he agreed with the guy. I think your being rubbed the wrong way was your choice, Chris.

Chinese arts? You need to read my posts better if you are going to bother to reply. I have never trained in Chinese arts. Of the guys I know openly teaching this stuff each has trained mostly in Japanese arts, and some in Chinese arts. Of the hundreds of men who have felt it, and oddly decided it was very much worth their time to train it? They are just about all, to a man in Japanese arts as well. Most under shihan in: Aikido many branches, Daito ryu three branches, Koryu various schools. Most of who, have been in the arts for many, years. It’s not exactly an uneducated, novice crowd, in fact I’ll state the opposite is true, though some keep alluding to having to give them advice.

Sorry you feel I am insulting folks. From the responses I am getting and the list of those reading and writing, I’d say that’s just a very few. I am not interested in convincing folks as much as I am trying to get the word out. There is no way, now way in hell, to convince someone on the net. Instead I am writing for the smart guys who are curious to see if they are missing or not getting something. Many guys here, are going to be smart budo guys, they are going to check around, write intelligent private emails and end up training with guys who teach this stuff.
Chris, you and I have one thing we do not share in common. I spoke of it here before and do again. I and the people I share this with have felt top men in the world, in Daito ryu, Aikido, ICMA and Koryu, and some teachers in Koryu have felt this. The men who train it have made a judgment of value. You have not shared their experiences. Thus cannot comment on it for them, can you? Folks may freely write me and them off as fools-not saying you are bud-or perhaps, just perhaps something is brewing, that has been there all along.
Magic throws? I think many aiki throws are anything but magic. I see them as silly and insipid and simply won’t work on many skilled men. I also think other Aiki-men feel as stiff as boards and are easy to throw or screw with. Most waza are a collection of hopeful “what-if’s” that ain’t gonna happen against trained men. There is also Aiki that is valid and powerful, but used in highly controlled conditions, on folks with pre-conditioned responses. There are many ideas of “Aiki” all over the place. In fact there is so much- and it is splitting yearly with too many Daito ryu and Aikido schools branching off that it becomes meaningless to anyone but themselves. I’m not interested in any of it.
These guys are still all in their arts and love them and their teachers. I think it’s just great.
Tanren
Contrary to you telling me I haven’t described how it affects an opponent I and others certainly have in various posts. If you read them again I think you will see it. Again, how my tanren affects others in contact with you is largely in how it changes your own body in the first place. Where it may be hard for you to understand is the fact that it is indeed not openly shown, and in the opinion of men who trained all over the world, not exhibited in students and several teachers alike they know. Were your body trained this way, you would be noticed. Period. You could invite just about anyone to try and throw you, and they would have one hell of time doing so, if at all. Your trained balance would be so profound that others coming into contact with it are manipulated by your choice of where and how you choose to move and they have little option to resist. I don’t try this out on Japanese trained Ukemi dummies. I hate the Japanese model of “taking” ukemi, and always have. I’ve tried this out on people from a myriad of arts, MMA and wrestlers, all of whom did not believe it and wanted to stop me. Thus I have my own collection of experiences. Hitting is a whole other topic. Power delivery to hands, elbows, knees and chest wall is best described by others. Again, others have demonstrated the results if this training, Ark, and Sigman are two. Techniques are an expression of an art. The more connected you are the less important they become.
As for folks writing in “who are my students?” I’ll try responding one more time to this in the hopes that you just missed it and are not being sarcastic or denigrating.
None…of the folks writing in are or were my students. They heard about it, some asked me for years and I refused to meet them, and finally about a year ago after an unpleasant exchange I agreed. Initially the groups were there to test it. Then others heard about it. Last, in case you missed it as well. Most/many have trained with Arkuzawa and Sigman as well. Why? to test it and us. No one, not one, previously believed or accepted this training as being valid or something they needed.
They were you, Chris.
Happy Holidays
Dan

[Dan Harden]

What are we really talking about here is performance martial arts stunts, which had little or no combat relevance. But, have more to do with persuading others of supernatural or extraordinary power for fame or profit. These performance stunts and demonstrations that entertained and Wowed audiences clearly had a long lasting impact.

We really have to keep things in perspective, and those who have been in the martial arts for years, and take the arts seriously know all of this. They know martial arts parlor tricks purpose is for some to have fun or fame I don’t think those of responsible and quality martial arts training and background allow these performers to confuse real martial arts with their stage acts. It is dangerous and irresponsible.

I understand that you will always have such people preforming these stage acts in the martial arts. If we are going to credit them in any way it should be in the area of entertainment and not martial arts.
Jack Robison
**************************************************

Hey Jack
Old tradition. Budo is a funny topic to discuss among some men. Every once in a while you get guys who'll call you on your opinions. You have ignored the information in these posts and offer insult, by choice.
Wrong guy Jack.
Since you are now insulting me personally as
a. some sort of trickster
b. only citing others for borrowed knowledge, not my own.
c. performing slight of hand
d. Now misleading others for money, which would by inference extend to men who are training this way for free.

Why don't you come explain all this to me.
To my face.

While here,
1. You can meet some men who have been in the arts for ten to twenty years. I'm quite sure they will drive or fly in, just to meet you, and you can tell them how they are unable to judge things…as good as you...for their own training.

to show the new students, prospecting students, the unsuspecting public, or those martial artist who haven’t had experience with such things yet.

Maybe in person, I'll tell you again about shihan and Menkyo who are training it since you cannot comprehend the written word.
2. Then, nothing but movement. You may try to do anything to me you like: Aikido, Daito ryu, Judo, or, I have pairs of 6 oz gloves you can use.
Mind you, I won’t teach you a damn thing, but, I will welcome the chance to demonstrate my ideas and their relevancy to the martial arts...on you.

You wrote and offered me the advice to "Put up, or shut up."Which Nathan deemed apropriate for this forum for some reason. Since I, have been doing that very thing, and men have written in here to tell you of it and you have chosen to ignore them, I'll take you up on it.
Come on up!

If not, then for the umpteenth time from everyone including the moderate on down to most of us here who know each other or have known of each other for many years... take the second half or your own advice.

Dan

[leavittk]

Hey guys, been following the thread for a while. I will be training with one or two of these guys soon. Don't want to mention names as there is no need to drag anyone into this that does not want to participate in this discussion.

I also want to make it clear that I am not approaching my training with them as an attempt to debunk or "get on the bandwagon".

Frankly I think there is some merit to the methodology of these guys, and I have started trying to focus on developing a base for learning it in the last few months.

Throwing ego and personality out is important I think, and looking at it for what it is and what it can do for you.

I have discussed this topic with many of you over on aikiweb, and don't see getting involved here again as much of it would be a re-hash of the same thing.

What I will do, however, is go, train, and then get back with my own experiences and impressions. Which may or may not be the same as others.

What I expect will happen is that I will probably come back and say "yeah there is value, yes, it is helpful, necessary, and relevant."

What I don't expect will happen is that I will become over enamored with it, and say "lets through out all that we learned or are training."

Frankly, Dan and I have had our own disagreements and colored discussions on this topic. There is much that I disagree with him on. Much of it Nathan has covered.

However, there are somethings I would tend to agree with him on.

Anyway, I will let you know what I "feel" and find relevant.

I have enjoyed the discussion thus far! Thanks.

[Samurai Jack]

Dan,

Let's make this clear as the blue sky over Montana. I really don't want you to get the wrong idea.

You are mistaken, it's not a put up or shut up situation. It is an issue, born from so many requests and mine, reaching the most people you can with your skills. You make the claims in volumes of post on many boards for years, espousing your skills. So, logically it would reason its about time that you would do a seminar, put your stuff on you tube, go global. Right? That is all I am saying, and I don't know why your so defensive about it? It seems odd.

An oddity, demonstrated by you of you being abrasive and defensive when I asked you a simple innocuous question on the onset of this thread? I am not the only person you have addressed in this manner. It doesn't need to be addressed now, it is water under the bridge. The point is, it a very odd defensive behavior. But hey, that is your right, right? You can't criticize others.

--

Mark, by no means do I want to belittle anyone who believes Dan. Just because I don't believe Dan, doesn't mean I judge those who do. Every person has their own journey. You learned something from Dan, and that is good. Now expand your horizons keep learning and developing. Who am I to say that your wrong.

[Eric Joyce]

Lifting the legs only seems more impressive if you haven't thought about the physics involved. In actuality, in the demo you are describing, any downward force applied to the ground by the legs serves only to create a torque in the same direction as the torque resulting from the pusher's force. For Ueshiba to remain (rougly) fixed in place, the sum of the external torques must have been (roughly) zero (though we can, of course, quibble about the exact direction and magnitude of the pusher's force). Therefore, it would have taken less force to topple him if he didn't lift his legs. Extending the legs forward also moves one's center of mass forward and, therefore, serves to increase the torque due to gravity (the torque that directly opposes that of the pusher).

If you think about it, it's rather simple: when you are sitting on the ground with legs outstretched in front of you, the parts of your legs which are in contact with the ground are applying a torque to keep you in place under the influence of gravity. When someone starts to push on you, though, they are now applying that torque and less force is required of your legs to maintain equilibrium.

I suspect this is at least part of the reason why so many people believe the pusher's force to be "channeled" somehow into the ground (as in the often used analogy of an electric current): If the person being pushed wishes to remain in place, both the net external forces and torques must be roughly zero (otherwise, there would be appreciable translation or rotation, respectively, of the person's body). But this means that, if one is initially in a forward stance, for example, the forward foot must become "unweighted" in response to the pusher's force, and, therefore, an increased vertical force must be applied by the rear leg (to prevent the body from translating vertically). The increased weight on the rear leg is then responsible for the sensation that the pusher's force has been routed "into the ground."

Another trick you can add is lifting under the arms of the pusher (per some of Gozo Shioda's demos). The effect is, again, to increase the torque in opposition to that of the pusher, since lifting up on the arms tends to make one's body rotate forward.

You wouldn't happen to be a fellow Boilermaker would ya

[Dan Harden]

Frankly I think there is some merit to the methodology of these guys...
...What I expect will happen is that I will probably come back and say "yeah there is value, yes, it is helpful, necessary, and relevant."

...What I don't expect will happen is that I will become over enamored with it, and say "lets throwh out all that we learned or are training."

I have enjoyed the discussion thus far! Thanks.

Which is what I have quoted in some twenty pages.
1. Everyone pretty much stays in their art and improves their skill.
2. "No one...not one" has quit their art (I am quoting myself from repeated posts)

Frankly, Dan and I have had our own disagreements and colored discussions on this topic. There is much that I disagree with him on. Much of it Nathan has covered. However, there are somethings I would tend to agree with him on.

Well, you haven't trained this yet have you? Be open to us maybe agreeing more than you think possible...in the end.
I still think you will find relevance in what it will do for your conditioning, sensitivity and ability to chang-up and positioning and power delivery in grappling. I -know- you will as well. If you stick with it-and it takes a while, delivering knockout power from your back or in a clinch is very valuable.
Have fun training. Its agonizing, but fun.
Cheers
Dan