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Thread: Body Conditioning

  1. #106
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    Dan,

    I realize we're not going to agree, and I'm also not going to pick apart your replies and compare them with the Sagawa quotes I posted that contradict things you've said as fact earlier in this thread. Obviously the points are lost. And one of the points I was making, which you noticed, is that reading quotes second hand in a book that were made at different time periods in varying contexts, are not all that dependable when it comes to saying what Sagawa did or didn't do or think. It is not that Sagawa's comments are not of value, but that correctly understanding his point of view through reading a collection of quotes is difficult. Japanese tend to speak in a very context-driven way, meaning that they may say things that seemingly contradict previous statements if the context is not known and considered.

    Lets say you're correct that its a secret that no one can possiibly know without deep initiation.
    No, once again, what I'm saying is you can't know for a fact what the secrets are without being properly initiated. They may be what you think they are, or they may be different, or change somewhat at higher levels (such as body-aiki). As such, you run a significant risk of spreading more misinformation over the net. Why not just talk about what you know?
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  2. #107
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    1. Did you study at the author's dojo and was given that special instruction? I don't think you did, as the author didn't teach non-Japanese. The students he taught as you quote where with the author for decades before the author decided to teach what Takeda told him never to show. I am sure the author wasn't the only one Takeda said that to or taught.

    2. When speaking of what will improve someone's skill better, you are simply reading from the pages of a book that thousands of Japanese martial artists and masters have read it and a sweeping revelation through out Japanese martial arts community long before you had the book translated. The sweeping revelations would have been by those, and I paraphrase, as you put it in another thread, with the mindless drones going through the motions. That is insulting, and rude to everyone who trains in martial arts. On top of that you also admonished Nathan in another thread for insulting martial artists which you previously referred to as mindless etc. You based your proclamation on others experiences-not first hand, your only experience is your limited observations (in time and experience with) of others. The result then is from 3 party observations. It is the same thing as not being on the batting against Clemens who pitches a no hitter in the World Series, but rather hearing it from those that where there, or watched the game live, and also reading about it in the paper latter etc. Nothing wrong with that unless you talk like you where actually there, actually see it, where actually on the team and knew how Clemens did it.

    3. You also have not indicated the perimeters, or delineated the procedure you claim for improvement. You remain ambiguous, and say it isn’t discussed by the masters- dead ends. Yet indicate you have the knowledge, and point broadly to references such as CIMA without the detail explanations needed to support your claim. You make a claim you have to play by the rules.

    4. When it comes to providing people with credibility when making a claim…well you know what I mean. Here is the example, I go to a licensed professional, say a doctor on the board who is professionally trained with years of experience and expertise. A doctor who is well known and respected, top in his field, instead of the guy who is still in his first year of medical school working from text book, lecture theory.

    5. Pyrite. As I stated before, why should a man who holds on to knowledge that made him better then his students, that allowed him to defeat others who challenged him, and then not tell his students until he reached 90 years old, suddenly tell it all book? I personally, not think tanren is the Holy Grail. I think it is more of a political self-promotional kind of thing. I don't dispute your personal experiences with those you mentioned improved; I just don't think there is a magic bullet.

    I keep in mind none of these guys where rocket scientists with Harvard degrees, other than the writer of the book who is a very smart guy from what I found out. One guy of thousands who has that high of an I.Q. who is as good as he is, and I am sure if it was that easy he would have figure it out long before his master told him when the master was in his 90s. Then he would have surpassed his master before that. I read too that Takeda was uneducated, is this true? Even if it isn't he wasn't a Harvard grad.

    6. Fin. You and your friends may be insulted by what I said to you. Or you can think about it. Either way...stuff happens. I don't tend to be over taken by gold rush fever, and don't mistake fool’s gold for the real thing. It is disconcerting to hear those who speak with authority in a field they are not experts in. No one likes getting fool’s gold, thinking its gold. No one likes getting wives tales thinking its real medical advice. If the experts are not speaking we shouldn’t fill in it in with our own speculations, even though it is a human thing to do. People don't like getting the wrong info.

  3. #108
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Nathan
    Yeah I'll agree we disagree. Funny, I was thinking the same thing. That you are missing facts of what he is saying and the points are going to get lost anyway.
    To change the subject on to other things
    Some points on training...that is my method(tm) only.
    Tanren and its effects on the body to create power
    Fundamentally, connection, or aiki is created through power. The power is within the body of the adept, not in something which you do, that…is an after effect. The power in the body is soft, very relaxed, and fluid, not fixed or static. When it comes to power it would do everyone a service to review some things they already sort of know. Think of how many famous Budo men, when asked why they wanted to do Budo said “To become strong.” Just what did it mean? To what were they referring?Why did Sagawa discuss strength or power over flexibility?What did –he- mean?
    It is interesting to talk about power and the type of unusual or unnatural strength that Sagawa may have been referring to but mores the point, how many martial artists realize the importance of power in these so-called soft arts in the first place? And why is it unnatural and has to be trained into the body?
    Why is it important to retrain the legs and back? To do what?
    First and foremost it involves the spine. Learning to open and strengthen the way it supports load, transfers weight and issues power from the ground, or manipulates incoming force.
    In essence you learn to support the spine and turn the body around it, remove slack, have center activated and move. One sentence, much training…….just removing slack is hilariously difficult. In doing so your body learns to absorb force and send it or allow it to sink to the ground, hence any incoming horizontal force goes straight to the ground. And further to rise energy. The hands mean nothing, nor do hand shapes…if anything they can be a crutch and a detriment to training, as they engage too much shoulder power. More on that later. You should be able to have really strong men push on you and you simply stand there. Or gab your body and try to throw you and have their force captured and zeroed out by your body and you throw them in an instant or cast them off. This type of movement where everything is joined and the slightest thought of movement causes results in them is what Sagawa meant by his slightest movement having an effect. There are ways to teach this and the result is that once the body is trained to connect on the inside and to remove slack it understands what it needs to do to manipulate force. What receives/feeds. The cleaner the current, the more your body can create rising or sinking energy in any part that is touched. Head, shoulders, arms, hands what have you. Hand shapes and waza are nothing more than a technique and they…cease to have significance.
    When is turning, not turning?
    Supporting the central axis, and teaching the pelvic girdle, and opening the arch and strengthening its connection allows incoming force to be absorbed and neutralized, leaving the body to turn on its axis to manipulate that force without losing balance. The spine supports and can generate power without losing balance. And this-the spine- can be wound around once you train to know how, so the absorptive qualities can be neutral and ghosty while you manipulate, or powerfully forward or backward, up, or down. The incoming energy goes to zero while the outer axis manipulate. This is demonstrated in any number of waza.
    This is unnatural movement. Most folks turn their bodies, and this opens up an instability in their posture and a highway to their center getting manipulated. Their “out” is usually through technique of some sort or positional change. Which is staple to good martial arts but really isn’t the power we should be training for. Having a highly trained central axis is. The structure and training that creates the central axis gets added to- to create an enhanced central equilibrium There is much more, and of course this is done best through solo exercises and some paired exercises to train the body. But overall someone who is adept at this, is a son-of-a-bitch to try and throw or lock up. It’s damn near impossible, and getting hit by them feels like getting hit from a truck. It gives a whole new meaning to a no-inch punch.
    Secondarily, it forestalls the fundamental mechanics of budo for throwing a person. In the mechanics of throwing someone you weight them on one side, or you carry their weight past their balance point forward or back. With this training your retention of balance is greatly enhanced and extends ranges of stablility and it completely changes the natural human tendency to carry weight on one side, the typical walking sway. In the end it is a trained anti-aiki that can stop aiki being done to you.
    There is much more to all this, including in-yo-ho, which is fascia training that does and doesn’t require specific breathing to do. Interesting enough Tokimune discussed some of this. While he described it a bit and included the initial steps- with breathing- he didn’t go into detail of what was being trained to connect to what. That’s the really interesting work and is in other arts outside of Daito ryu. The use of breathing when first doing In, Yo ho is an easier way to learn and is the source of the term “breath-power.” As Sagawa noted; you don’t need the breathing... he didn’t see a need. In a sense he is right…..later. But Tokimune’s described and published method (and I bet it was Sokaku's) included it, as do the Chinese arts-moslty likely the source-, as it is easier to learn to identify certain things at first. I wonder if Sagawa offered that as a nice coded way to let some informed Asain readers of other schools know he was past that point in his training. When things are connected they just….are. It’s another reason why his words can be misunderstood by some folks who don’t understand what he could have meant by not needing the breath.
    Energy
    FWIW rising energy and sinking energy in wrist grabs and hand shapes in any art is a training tool only. It isn’t needed to impart the skills. Aikido’s Kokyu-ho has nothing to do with a wrist grab. I think it can cause a significant handicap and actually slow down the process of learning. As a training device it is virtually meaningless for capturing the correct use of the body, so is doing locks, throws or any other kata. That’s just more art specific, how-to-fight or simply train… OUR way… stuff. Learning to train the body directly can be an easier, and more powerful path as it helps to identify things and keep the shoulders from firing while you retrain the body. There is a training specifically designed to change the body…outside of Kata which is exactly what Sagawa was referring and that Takeda told him not to teach. Once the power is in the body, rising energy or sinking or weight transfer is in anything that is touched. As I said what you do with it after is just the outer form or “art” shape.

    Disclaimer
    This is artless. It does not involve any art. After training this way for years, It will give you power to stand next to some substantial people. During your journey chances are many people you come in contact with will notice that you…are different. Overall what I am saying is folks…it….works. Currently folks who have been actively training with some folks for a year or so are reporting substantial changes in their bodies and in their power which is effecting their arts waza. What you do with it is up to you. Your art…of choice could be Daito ryu or Aikido or Goju, BJJ, Judo, etc …once you learn their waza of course.
    I'm sure this is alian and different for many, and I will be challenged on it. I have in the past..on the net its been a hodgepodge of folks trying to wrap their minds around it.
    To my face; shodan to menkyo have agreed that it is what we need to be working on.
    Cheers
    Dan
    Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training. Only amateurs think that techniques are enough. They understand nothing. Sagawa Yukiyoshi
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 24th December 2007 at 02:20.

  4. #109
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    Dan,

    You're an interesting guy and while I don't 100% disagree with what you say, I have to say the way you present things is always very confrontational. Haven't you heard you attract more bees with honey then vinegar?

    I agree that the parts of the body you are training are very vital in proper budo development. I disagree with the blanket statement that the best way to train them is through solo practice (ie. taiso that are used just to develop these body parts; outside of kata training).

    When I find weakness in my own technqiue (and it is often!) I will go back and re-examine the failure and why. The problem that arises for me at least isn't proper knowledge of the tanren you speak about but rather "time in." As you, Sagawa, Akuzawa, my taiji chuan teacher, people who teach progressive muscle relaxation, etc. have all stated this stuff has to be practiced daily in order to benifit someone to the max. So what is it that really make such a bold difference, some special taiso, or regular *proper* training?

    The mountain men you speak about, why do you think they came back as beasts? Do you think they all developed the same or similar set of solo exercises on their own and worked them for a month; that there is some mystic Asian conspiracy to keep this knowledge from Westerners? or do you think correct training in *good* kata for a month was the answer? Whatever you think; the key is training for a month! Long hard consistant training. BTW I don't see Mas Oyama standing with his back to a tree to master this stuff, I have a feeling he repeated good kata in the mountains. Maybe I'm wrong?

    If someone did a kata that has as much tanren within the kata as you do outside of any kata, which do you think would be better to spend your time on? In the kata not only would you get tanren, you'd be mastering the heiho as well, another very important part of an art. If you don't know how to weild your sword well, it doesn't matter how much tanren you've done you'll still end up cut to pieces (think Boxer Rebellion). I think there are some ryu or arts that have kata or forms (some with partner some without) with a great deal of tanren and by practicing them you will get all the benifits that you are now seeing in your own practice. I think this is why some ryu have created consistantly high level martial artists for decades even centuries and other ryu only a rare master comes along every so often.

    On to Sagawa. I am sure he had some serious skills. I would be suprised if he didn't! However, he is a hype-man. Everything he does is always a little better then anything anyone else does. Maybe its true. I've never trained with him, never trained with anyone who trained with him and never met anyone who felt his skill. So I can't really say if he was as good as he said he was. I feel the same about Ueshiba, Horikawa, Hisa, Takeda (Sokaku and Tokimune), etc. But these other guys didn't write about how great they were (or maybe they did I just haven't read it?). Maybe because you keep dropping the same quotes from Sagawa about how great he thought he was and how he got that way by solo training, in support of your own research, it just rubbed me the wrong way.

    So is there really an Asian plot to keep this out of our evil Western hands? Maybe, but I've met a few Japanese teachers and at least one Chinese teacher (I don't play much with Chinese martial arts) show me very similar methods to create the skills they had, all within the context of kata. "No, no, no when you do this you need to keep your pelvis tilted and spine lengthened." "No, no, no like this..." (different teacher describing a similar method form a very different position). Maybe I just take them for granted? I am a very poor student.

    So when you come down to it, it's all unbendable arm, or spine, or leg, or pelvis, etc. It's not that rare and it's commonly taught, it's included in good kata (I guess so lazy people like me get a little something) it just isn't practiced very hard, stripped from context or in proper context, by many people. I hope you are a more dedicated and harder working student then I am!

    Merry Christmas!
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

  5. #110
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    Dan,

    What you've been saying - before my posting a number of Sagawa quotes in my last post - was that aiki can't be performed without body-conditioning, and that aiki is not a technique, but happens once you make your body strong. Not only do I not agree with that point of view, the quotes I provided appear to support that opinion - that Sagawa learned techniques of aiki from Sokaku, then made them better through body-conditioning. And perhaps discovered an alternate / more advanced way of applying aiki.

    so I keep talking about someone who is... Sagawa
    No, your posting fairly large assumptions about Sagawa based on an incomplete translations of Kimura's book about him. That's the problem.

    While trying to argue against my idea that there are specific way to train to shorten the learning curve… you inadvertently point out that there is a solo training method inherent in the art and that it-the body aiki- is the …it…in the first place.
    Actually no, I don't, as I don't interpret Sagawa's use of the term "body-aiki" as referring to his body-conditioning, but rather a type of technique(s). Body-conditioning surely helped him perform such techniques, but it is my interpretation that they are more or less two different things. Sure, I could be wrong too, but that's why we don't agree and I am not contradicting myself.

    In regards to people getting it quicker once Sagawa started teaching more explicitly, I would guess the students who made the most progress are the ones who had already been training in the basics with him for many, many years. If such a person had not "gotten" it yet, I don't see why getting pushed in the right direction wouldn't produce positive results. On the other hand, I interpret Sagawa's comments about no-shortcuts as referring mostly to those without any real aiki training. But who knows... maybe he was old and couldn't keep his stories straight.

    I am saddened however to see Sagawa level of skill marginalized, sidelined or reduced in anyway.
    I agree, but I also am saddened to see his level of skill sensationalized by those who never trained with him directly. I guess that works both ways.

    As you say, Sagawa's developments may have truly been a natural evolution of DR aiki, or, may have been more a result of his own ideas based on the totality of his cross training experience. Sagawa stated his aiki became different from Sokaku's, as well as "completely different from Daito-ryu aiki". I guess it either is or isn't, but don't get down on me for being the one to post this quote. Sagawa based his understanding of DR aiki from training a kata at 17 years old, then did his own R&D for the rest of his life to get better. I'd say it's quite possible that such a great length of time produced an evolution that can be categorized as "completely different from Daito-ryu aiki".

    You've "heard" a lot of things from a lot of people, and based assumptions off of their comments. Maybe you're right, and maybe you're wrong. I happen to largely disagree with you for my own reasons, but I'm not going to post to the internet that you are wrong just because I've formed a somewhat different perspective.

    **

    In regards to your last post, nice effort at speaking of your R&D in more general terms (for the sake of discussion shall we call it Dan-ryu or Dan-fu?)

    I would like to point out the following observations so that you *might* better understand why I'm responding to you in the way I am:

    1) Through the substantial effort you made to speak in general terms, you managed to reduce the number of times you mentioned Sagawa from (19) times to just (5). If you are interested in talking about Sagawa because it is an interesting subject, fine. But in most cases you bring his name up in the spirit of comparing what you think he was doing to what you are doing, and that is where problems keep arising.

    Or [grab] your body and try to throw you and have their force captured and zeroed out by your body and you throw them in an instant or cast them off. This type of movement where everything is joined and the slightest thought of movement causes results in them is what Sagawa meant by his slightest movement having an effect. There are ways to teach this ... Fundamentally, connection, or aiki is created through power. In the end it is a trained anti-aiki that can stop aiki being done to you.
    And this analysis is based on studying with Sagawa? How does "Dan-ryu" define aiki? Isn't there an English term that might be more appropriate? Or if your expertise is coming from CIMA, why not call it by the Chinese term?

    There is much more to all this, including in-yo-ho, which is fascia training that does and doesn’t require specific breathing to do.
    I know the Daitokan published something about in-yo-ho and breathing, but I don't remember getting all that out of the short paragraph that was written by them. I seem to recall it was pretty vague, and personally, I suspect there may be an error in the translation in part of it. Speaking of breathing again...

    As Sagawa noted; you don’t need the breathing... he didn’t see a need. In a sense he is right…..later. It’s another reason why his words can be misunderstood by some folks who don’t understand what he could have meant by not needing the breath.
    He didn't just say it wasn't necessary, he said special breathing methods are of "no use", and "is something that is induced artificially, and as a result, will cause movements to become slow or awkward at certain points and the techniques to feel unnatural." Maybe it's really and truly just not part of his method?

    Aikido’s Kokyu-ho has nothing to do with a wrist grab. I think it can cause a significant handicap and actually slow down the process of learning. As a training device it is virtually meaningless for capturing the correct use of the body, so is doing locks, throws or any other kata.
    We're going to tell us about aikido now? Well, surprisingly, I disagree with you. I would agree that the kokyu-ho that is commonly practiced in aikido is largely misunderstood, but I would not agree with your assessment. But that is my opinion, as a 5th dan instructor who has studied the art for many years.

    There is a training specifically designed to change the body…outside of Kata which is exactly what Sagawa was referring and that Takeda told him not to teach.
    I seem to recall the statement as being something along the lines of "I began to teach explicitly, even the secrets Takeda instructed me not to reveal". These secrets may have included body-conditioning, but it sounds like your jumping to conclusions based on what you already believe about Sagawa.

    What you do with it is up to you. Your art…of choice could be Daito ryu or Aikido or Goju, BJJ, Judo, etc …once you learn their waza of course.
    This is called mixed martial arts (MMA). It may be just what you need, or something that it not appropriate for the methods you are use. Do what you want, but for those training in a dojo under a teacher, be advised that integrating training methods or internal methods without the proper level of seniority in your art, or without your teacher's approval, may:

    1) begin to alienate you from your teacher and/or classmates.
    2) piss off your teacher and get you in trouble. Being a student means following your teachers advise. If you think your teacher sucks or does not have your best interest in mind, then maybe you have the wrong teacher. But either follow them or don't.
    3) alter generations of teachings into something different, which may confuse the hell out of you, or, make a significant improvement. Either way, the transmission of the art will change with everyone who studies from you. You are either a student or an independent contractor, and independent contractors are not embraced by most arts or teachers.

    On a last point, Dan stated:

    FWIW rising energy and sinking energy in wrist grabs and hand shapes in any art is a training tool only. It isn’t needed to impart the skills ... [and previously...] What you see the hands doing to make peng jin, or say aiki age means nothing, that's an art form.
    If you haven't gotten to this page in the book yet, here is a little something about hand shapes:

    "Around this time I [Sagawa] visited Takeda Sensei, and concurrently there happened to be a photo of Ueshiba Morihei being run in the Asahi Newspaper. When Takeda Sensei saw this photo, he said, “If he performs techniques using that kind of hand shape, even if one hundred years passes, he still won’t understand aiki”. At that time I thought that Takeda Sensei’s comment was strange, but later, when I was in the latter part of my thirties, I finally came to understand his meaning."
    Not only does Sokaku seem to feel hand shapes are an important part of aiki, but it appears that Sagawa ended up later understanding the meaning and agreeing with him. I know your opinion is not wrong, and we probably just misunderstood what you were really saying, but in case you hadn't gotten that far I thought I'd give you a little help.

    Much of what you wrote was interesting. Much of it was stuff I've come across or already knew, but interesting anyway. The problem is when you start making unsupportable comparisons.

    Chris, interesting post.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  6. #111
    Mark Murray Guest

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    I find that some things in this life are simply amazing. In more ways than one.

    Here you have someone (Dan) who is openly stating information about a way of training that has been kept secret or only shown to certain people. Really, that's the first I've seen of someone (not including McDojo people) offering this kind of information.

    And you have others who state that only by training in prescribed techniques/kata from certified instructor will secrets be revealed. Nothing bad to say here. Most of us fall into this category. We've found teachers we really like, appreciate, and uphold.

    And then the cross talk starts.

    Dan never stated that the techniques/kata of an art were worthless. They are the art's form made physical. Dan talks about underlying body skills, not the physical manifestations of an art -- the techniques/kata that define it from other arts.

    Techinques/kata and organizations. I've mostly trained in Aikido. And for the record, Dan has told me to stay in Aikido. Now, if he thought the art, its techniques/kata useless, why do that? Why not convert to MMA? And he's told others to stay in their art. Do I think techniques/kata are useless? That an organizations teachings are useless? No. Take the Jiyushinkai. I have a whole lot of respect for Clark sensei and everyone I know in the Jiyushinkai. I think their way of teaching is one of the best. I like the way their syllabus is organized. They do good stuff. But here I am, doing both. Amazing. And I find myself not alone, but in very good company.

    Learning from others ... If you discount learning from others, then you discount your teacher's teachers. So, when someone comes through and says here's a training method that was kept secret, why aren't you checking it out? And why aren't you checking out all the other people who have checked it out? Even if you never heard of Dan, just doing some research will show you that some fairly well known people do. And no, I won't do that for you, but here's a little start:

    http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=13

    You can discount what Dan's saying all you want until you're blue in the face, but until you do the research, feel with your body, and meet those who have gone before (those who have met Dan and those that have trained with him, past and present), you are only showing ignorance. (And, no, I don't mean that in a negative fashion. The meaning is that there are things hidden in plain sight that one doesn't see ... yet. Been there, done that. Still doing it, in fact. )

    But, think about these things. Do the research. Then start forming an educated (mentally and physically) opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan
    I demonstrated what I do to a teacher who also trained with Ueshiba Morihei. When that teacher watched then felt me it was stated flatly and in no uncertain terms the following: "This is Ueshibas Aikido! They don't teach ths anymore you know! It's not in modern aikido."
    One fellow and I were somewhat taken a back and explained how this is such a debate on aikiweb.The teachers looked at us puzzled and said.
    "What do they know? Did -they- train with Ueshiba sensei?"

    We all were sort of stumped being faced with such simple logic.
    I posted that experience before. No I'm not going to reveal the source. Ellis and Chuck know who it is as well as a fellow who posts here.
    Here you have someone who trained with Ueshiba stating matter-of-fact that what Dan is doing is what Ueshiba did. Ueshiba learned from Takeda. Dan's saying it's aiki, body skills, etc. He's found a connection to his solo training and Sagawa's writings. And per his list, shihan and menkyo kaiden's have, too.

    I'd include me, but hey, I'm a nobody. For those who want authority to show them the way, well, no need to reply to my post. I'm no authority. For those who have teachers who keep strict adherence to their school and no others, well, no need to reply either. I'm no authority. Certainly not qualified in anything. I'm just a researcher and student. So, for those above, please just ignore me.

    IMO,
    Mark

    Merry Christmas all!

  7. #112
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    This is called mixed martial arts (MMA). It may be just what you need, or something that it not appropriate for the methods you are use. Do what you want, but for those training in a dojo under a teacher, be advised that integrating training methods or internal methods without the proper level of seniority in your art, or without your teacher's approval, may:
    1) begin to alienate you from your teacher and/or classmates.
    2) piss off your teacher and get you in trouble. Being a student means following your teachers advise. If you think your teacher sucks or does not have your best interest in mind, then maybe you have the wrong teacher. But either follow them or don't.
    3) alter generations of teachings into something different, which may confuse the hell out of you, or, make a significant improvement. Either way, the transmission of the art will change with everyone who studies from you. You are either a student or an independent contractor, and independent contractors are not embraced by most arts or teachers.
    Well for umpteenth time, No where, anywhere, do I encourage folks to become MMA independent contractors, or leave their arts. In fact no one is. As for your advising the general reader? Fine. Advising those coming to train with me? you need to get a grip. Most are dan ranks of various levels, Nathan. Many of them are teachers, some very advanced in theor studies, and more than afew training this are in Koryu. They are big boys and girls, Nathan, able to make their own judgments and evaluations based on years of training with master level instructors. I’m sure, in fact I know, they are enjoying your “advice.”
    As a koryu –student…I think you are being a bit crazed and parochial in your views. Why? I know Koryu menkyo who not only have no trouble with it, they want to learn it. As I said earlier adding in your seniors and equals in aikido, and others in DR under Shihan, who once they felt this training considered it the finest skill they could use in their art …are remaining in their art.. They don’t agree with you, nor do I.
    We all appreciate your views, but you're just starting to sound a bit over-the-top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    Much of what you wrote was interesting. Much of it was stuff I've come across or already knew, but interesting anyway. The problem is when you start making unsupportable comparisons.
    Your understanding, or lack thereof, of things I wrote are simply that. Hands on is the only way to really know what each of us know. Just your stated opinion that it takes the understanding of a 5th dan and many years in Aikido to fix kokyu has helped us understand where you are coming from. For me, it holds no relevance whatsoever, and it doesn’t pan out in the real world. I have met and trained with too many who haven't a clue...in their bodies, and their fix is more of the same stuff that doesn’t work. I think it’s sad, and I am helping teachers, fix that. You can call it what ever you like since I don’t teach any art, but they clearly have a much different assessment of things then you do, So do I. It’s not hurting folks, it’s helping them.
    Merry Christmas
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 24th December 2007 at 15:14.

  8. #113
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Well thanks Mark.
    I think the "kept secret in the arts" stuff is a bit over the top as well. What I say is that this stuff -is in the arts- just not shown to everyone. It's why I can stand, in a room, with ICMA master level teachers, and with Koryu menkyo's and with Daito ryu folks. So it isn't just me. How do we account for the others who are just now talking about it, and showing things as well? They got it from the arts as well. How do I account for a Taiji guy doing aiki techniques stupendously well, and being asked by Sagawa's students to teach them. They were his direct students, they made their own assesements. Of course Nathan can say what did... they... know. Its a never ending arguement. The ones who seem to argue most fervently are the folks, either protecting their arts or stating that no one can know or compare what is what unless they are a master of both or all. It's actually a very sound and logical argument that I have no problem with. A preservationist wouldn't even consider it. For many of them, its all or nothing. Get each, from its own source, no shades of grey. It's just that as a physical model, it just isn't true. It is the waza, strategies and technical expressions that make more of the arts individual framework. There is a tie that binds us. Many don't want to hear it or believe its even possible. And if you say the word ...aiki. It goes bonkers.
    Happy Holidays
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 24th December 2007 at 15:39.

  9. #114
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Wanted to edit in after the bonkers line

    Folks will always encounter things they think are unique. If it is highly unusual, then all the more so. It’s only after they see it, and feel it elsewhere as well, and can do it do they start to see things differently.
    Maybe the best thing to do is to leave off trigger words like aiki, Kokyu and jins, and so on. There is too much proprietary stuff attached to them. That way when teachers of those various arts feel you and tell you…you.. are doing their arts high level stuff, the onus is on them, not you. In any case it sure as hell doesn't mean you know the art.
    From India, to China, to Japan this body training is and was known, and is a corner stone to the arts. Some will forever believe some country boy was unique in all the world and discovered something different. I thought that way for years. Nothing is truer than the fact than some folks think they are traveling down a little known secret path, only to discover it’s a well trodden lane.
    Happy holidays
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 24th December 2007 at 16:07.

  10. #115
    Dan Harden Guest

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    I got to go last minute shopping. Just a quick note. Most of us are husbands and Dads and everyday blokes working our butts off to learn stuff. Obviously we are passionate about what we know and what we think we know. Some times it comes across as offensive. I am terrible at getting points across. When we get together, face-to-face, most of us have a blast and we can feel and talk things through. I'm an example of that. I seem to write in a very flat, and short manner-usually while I am taking work breaks- but, all will tell you, you can't get me to be serious in person. Lets try to be nice to each other. I really have no interest in offending, for offense sake and apologize for doing so wherever it applies.
    Again, happy holidays
    Dan

  11. #116
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Murray View Post
    I find that some things in this life are simply amazing. In more ways than one.

    Here you have someone (Dan) who is openly stating information about a way of training that has been kept secret or only shown to certain people. Really, that's the first I've seen of someone (not including McDojo people) offering this kind of information.

    And you have others who state that only by training in prescribed techniques/kata from certified instructor will secrets be revealed. Nothing bad to say here. Most of us fall into this category. We've found teachers we really like, appreciate, and uphold.
    Mark, it is clear you support Dan and it is admirable, you clearly find Dan someone to learn from. That is admirable and I respect that. We have posted to each other in the past and found no contention within differences and misunderstandings. Therefore, the following should be no different. I would like to comment on a few things you brought up in your post that I didn't go into detail with before.

    For an over used but true example, Bruce Lee stated strongly and lived it in the 60's the issue that Dan uses and back up using Segawa, who kept it secret. Bruce Lee didn't keep it secret; in fact he pushed it as a candidate for President. He was not the originator of this CIMA philosophy. Also, B.K. Frantzis a CIMA-ist who trained with Ueshiba of Aikido had said that Ueshiba had more (I paraphrase) of an understanding and use of Chinese Internal philosophy/principle then that of anyone he had seen in Daito ryu. Frantzis trained with Ueshiba in 1960s. Ueshiba learned Datio ryu through kata and since I don't know Aikido will make the assumption he still taught and maintained kata.

    Dan speaking to this old argument kata vs. no kata reflects on my personal feelings of his disenfranchisement. It is kind of a slap in the fact of those who learned kata which he uses Segawa support him and his position. Segawa is also throwing sand in the face of those arts and the sister arts who still teach kata. Which according to him knew this and he maintained teaching kata until his 90's. Then says everyone else is doing it wrong and he is right. Dan is proclaim his is an Architect because he a drawing table. He is purposely muddling the situation, and confusing people on something he has no authority to do so, for his own benefit. This isn't acceptable in any martial art.

  12. #117
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Jack .
    I believe in kata training, I do it everyweek in Koryu, exhaustively so.. among other things. There is a wisdom to not using kata as well.
    I don't believe in it for certain things and mores the point, perhaps not in the way you may. It is another training tool among other things.
    And me helping folks has not benifited me in any way, financially or in reputation. Other than making some new friends, It has come at a loss more than a gain. there are many reading here who would not agree with you.
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 24th December 2007 at 16:59.

  13. #118
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    Goll-eee. Miss a couple of days and you are 116 posts behind!

    I started to read every post but my eyes went crossed,

    I'll sum up my experience:

    Aiki = blend, = soft = never fighting against or contesting a person's power

    Internal = alignment = use of the joints not muscles for power = creating power thru the turning of the joint and expressing it thru correct alignment and root to the ground

    These two terms have been confused for a very long time but have little to do with each other. A teacher may use both simultaneously but that does not mean they become the same thing.

    The confusion grows because internal is so mysterious since it is hard to see what the teacher is doing inside. Chen Zhonghua says that if a 'master' won't let you touch him, he is not teaching you the real internal system.

    Internal power has lifted me up into the air and sent me back 6 or 8 feet. No way is it always "soft" or "not contesting."
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

  14. #119
    Mark Murray Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Jack View Post
    Also, B.K. Frantzis a CIMA-ist who trained with Ueshiba of Aikido had said that Ueshiba had more (I paraphrase) of an understanding and use of Chinese Internal philosophy/principle then that of anyone he had seen in Daito ryu. Frantzis trained with Ueshiba in 1960s. Ueshiba learned Datio ryu through kata and since I don't know Aikido will make the assumption he still taught and maintained kata.
    Hi Jack,
    You make a strange leap of faith here. If you don't know Aikido, how do you know Ueshiba learned it through kata?

    If you'll do a bit of research, Ueshiba actually did solo exercises. Not only that, but some of his students complained because Ueshiba wouldn't do a technique twice. (In fact, I've read similar things about Takeda.) Somewhere on Aikido Journal, I think it's printed that Ueshiba stated something along the lines of they're (techniques) all the same when asked to do a technique again. Kind of an "aha moment" for some because if outward physical techniques are all the same to Ueshiba, then he's doing something internally. Otherwise, he'd put more emphasis on technique driven work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sochin View Post
    I'll sum up my experience:

    Aiki = blend, = soft = never fighting against or contesting a person's power
    Ted, I have to disagree here. Aiki, to me, is definitely not "blending". Far from it. Matching appropriately, yes. But not blending.

    IMO,
    Mark

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Murray View Post
    Hi Jack,
    If you'll do a bit of research, Ueshiba actually did solo exercises. Not only that, but some of his students complained because Ueshiba wouldn't do a technique twice. (In fact, I've read similar things about Takeda.) Somewhere on Aikido Journal, I think it's printed that Ueshiba stated something along the lines of they're (techniques) all the same when asked to do a technique again. Kind of an "aha moment" for some because if outward physical techniques are all the same to Ueshiba, then he's doing something internally. Otherwise, he'd put more emphasis on technique driven work.
    Kondo Sensei-- I heard many times from my teacher, Takeda Tokimune, that Takeda Sokaku sensei never taught the same technique twice. Tokimune sensei told me that at the time he was teaching as his father's Representative Instructor, Sokaku would scold him for being "foolishly soft-hearted" if he taught too kindly or showed his students something more than once. My teacher often warned me, "If you teach the same technique twice, the second time your students will figure out how to defeat you with a counter-technique. Teach something different the second time."
    (http://www.daito-ryu.org/history4_eng.html)
    I believe this is (one) of the references you are looking for.
    Joseph Dostie

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