Is the value of Judo decreasing?

[Mdrnsamurai]

With the current popularity of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and vastness of Mixed Martial Arts in today's society do people have the feeling as I do that Judo isn't getting the credit it deserves in regards to it's Tachiwaza on the World Stage.

People have soon forgotten that Judo defeated JuJutsu in Japan and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in Brazil, and still to this day do not get credit for either. Because of it's current Sport Form practiced in the Olympics and World Championships.

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Combat Judo Academy

[Mark Murray]

Please sign your full name to each post. You agreed to this E-Budo rule when you signed up.

Thank you,
Mark

[Nii]

I find this to be a very interesting topic. I can't offer my thoughts on either Judo or BJJ as I practice neither, but the massive recent increase in popularity of BJJ is starting to gain momentum.

[Hissho]

If one follows/is involved in MMA/BJJ, you'd know that concerns stated in the original post (suspiciously sounding like a troll) are misplaced.

MMA is seeing more judoka, high level judoka, and they are doing well. You are seeing MMA fighters seeking out judo instruction in addition to their other practice.

Likewise, you see more of the young turks of BJJ wanting to study more judo to make for a more complete game. MANY old school BJJ black belts from Brazil are ALSO Judo black belts.

Outside of Internet wannbes, frankly the only people I have encountered with a "problem" against the others in the Judo/BJJ/MMA world have been judoka.

[cxt]

Confusing question---not really sure what the first poster is getting at.

Nor am I at all sure that "credit' is the point of studying a martial art....weird assertion in my opinion.
The more so since I'm not sure that the base idea ie judo is not getting enough credit, is even accurate in the first place.

[Mdrnsamurai]

Please sign your full name to each post. You agreed to this E-Budo rule when you signed up.

Sorry about that. Must have missed that part.

If one follows/is involved in MMA/BJJ, you'd know that concerns stated in the original post (suspiciously sounding like a troll) are misplaced.

MMA is seeing more judoka, high level judoka, and they are doing well. You are seeing MMA fighters seeking out judo instruction in addition to their other practice.

Likewise, you see more of the young turks of BJJ wanting to study more judo to make for a more complete game. MANY old school BJJ black belts from Brazil are ALSO Judo black belts.

Outside of Internet wannbes, frankly the only people I have encountered with a "problem" against the others in the Judo/BJJ/MMA world have been judoka.

I am not trying to Troll at all, I just hate watching shows like the UFC or WEC and seeing competitors using Judo Throws and not giving Judo credit for the technique. It's not that I am bitter against BJJ or MMA but I would like to see the proper credit for the use of Judo techniques. I feel that commentates have no problem pointing out or "crediting" that this is a Thai Leg Kick, or BJJ Arm lock, but seem to clump many Judo specific throws used as just "Take downs".

Nor am I at all sure that "credit' is the point of studying a martial art....weird assertion in my opinion.

I just would like to see Judo get Credit for some of it's techniques that are used . Maybe I am just being selfish, but after training for so many years in Judo I would like to see it get the respect it deserves, like I would for any other martial art.

It's my first post on this forum so I apologize if my points are a little confusing.

Train Hard, Stay Safe,
Good Luck

Combat Judo Academy

[cxt]

"Selfish" I don't think so.

Its just that most of the people I know about judo's contribution to all sorts of things.

Sorry that has been your expereince.

[Aaron T]

The truth of the matter is that they are actually part of the same sport, or that is the way I practice. That is also the perspective the majority of my coaches see it. (In terms of good developed ne-waza and tachi-waza.) Good standing and ground work are the hallmark of a good judo player. They are also the hallmark of a good BJJ player.

They whole judo vs Bjj thing is an argument that folks that are new to the sport have. Folks with time in beg, borrow, and steal whatever works to further their game. Members of my club compete and win in both arenas without any trouble.

Both sports have technical developments that stem from their respective rule sets. Nevertheless the mechanics of the body are the same.

Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
Sea-Town Sombo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org

[Jitsumania]

Richard, as a practitioner of Judo and BJJ concepts I understand what you are trying to get at. The judo practitioner has a venue to recieve his accolades and that is in the forum of Judo tournaments.
Mixed martial artists will attempt to BORROW techniques from other systems to apply in their arena (which allows alot more wiggle room for more dangerous techniques than Judo competition will allow) so they pick what they believe to be the best techniques and drill them inside out. It is not often where you see in MMA the application of throws outide of the Seoi-nage persuasion, Koshi Guruma, O-goshi, Tai otoshi, Kouchi Gari, Ouchi gari, Morote gari or a few Gakes. Primarily due to almost always a no Gi situation. Since many MMA fights wind up on the ground, there may be more emphasis on ground fighting training and credit for wins via armbars or Shime waza technique. Very rarely will you see a win from well executed Nage waza.BTW-it was the ground fighters that were at the forefront of domination in the pioneering days of MMA, thus the popularity. Never mind that Brazilian Jui-jitsu came and evolved directly from Judo!
It was mentioned before that Experienced Judoka are now entering this MMA venue and are doing well. That is true but they are also having to acquire increased proficiency in the Striking arts as well as more versatility in joint locking and arm and leg bar applications.
Forget the credit and enjoy the beauty of the art you practice. Judo is absolutly beautiful and technical in its own right. There is much more deeper meaning for you as a diligent practitioner of the art of Judo than there is from somebody just borrowing technique to become an eclectic fighter in a cage or octogon. They seek their reward via a different route than the Judoka. End of rant!

[Hissho]

My apologies re: the troll - its just that your original post sounds so old school UG that it comes across that way. The Judo/BJJ wars, second only to the Aiki Wars, were long since fought out here on E-Budo and virtually every other martial arts forum. The only people still hanging on to the argument these days seem to be adolescent white belt BJJ-ers, and long term dyed in the wool Judo loyalists.

After all, its MIXED MARTIAL ARTS, not Judo.

Of course the judoka are finding that they have to learn strikes, just as the BJJ guys learned that they have to learn strikes, learn takedowns, and that fighting from the gaurd is not necessarily the best option.

In some ways, Judo and Wrestling are proving better "base" arts for MMA than sport BJJ is.

Judo's contribution and effectiveness is well recognized, never fear. Just because a commentator may not recognize an osoto or a harai when its used to throw someone does not by any means mean that the fighters are not recognizing and embracing judo as a component art of MMA - increasingly so, and at the top levels of the sport.

Guys like Nakamura, Karo Parisyan and Soukoudjou have had more of a positive effect on how Judo is viewed in MMA specifically because they have adapted Judo to MMA, rather than wearing their dogi, not developing striking abilities, etc.

One could ask "what happened" to all the "credit" BJJ used to get for being the best art for MMA.

[Hissho]

Richard, as a practitioner of Judo and BJJ concepts I understand what you are trying to get at. The judo practitioner has a venue to recieve his accolades and that is in the forum of Judo tournaments.
Mixed martial artists will attempt to BORROW techniques from other systems to apply in their arena (which allows alot more wiggle room for more dangerous techniques than Judo competition will allow) so they pick what they believe to be the best techniques and drill them inside out. It is not often where you see in MMA the application of throws outide of the Seoi-nage persuasion, Koshi Guruma, O-goshi, Tai otoshi, Kouchi Gari, Ouchi gari, Morote gari or a few Gakes. Primarily due to almost always a no Gi situation. Since many MMA fights wind up on the ground, there may be more emphasis on ground fighting training and credit for wins via armbars or Shime waza technique. Very rarely will you see a win from well executed Nage waza.BTW-it was the ground fighters that were at the forefront of domination in the pioneering days of MMA, thus the popularity. Never mind that Brazilian Jui-jitsu came and evolved directly from Judo!
It was mentioned before that Experienced Judoka are now entering this MMA venue and are doing well. That is true but they are also having to acquire increased proficiency in the Striking arts as well as more versatility in joint locking and arm and leg bar applications.
Forget the credit and enjoy the beauty of the art you practice. Judo is absolutly beautiful and technical in its own right. There is much more deeper meaning for you as a diligent practitioner of the art of Judo than there is from somebody just borrowing technique to become an eclectic fighter in a cage or octogon. They seek their reward via a different route than the Judoka. End of rant!

What exactly is "Judo and BJJ Concepts?"

Good points, but its not a win from nage-waza that makes Judo (or wrestling) so effective an MMA art. Its clinch control, controlling the throw, and top control after the throw.

Followed by liberal doses of ground and pound.

[Jitsumania]

What exactly is "Judo and BJJ Concepts?"

Go to my profile, clck on our website and you will understand.
Read the rank reqirements section. This has our systems curriculum.
Concepts= techniques, philosophy,ect

Good points, but its not a win from nage-waza that makes Judo (or wrestling) so effective an MMA art. Its clinch control, controlling the throw, and top control after the throw.

Thats a given, no argument there.

Followed by liberal doses of ground and pound.

That again is also a given. Rules for winning; TAP OUT, CHOKE OUT or KNOCK OUT, or be ahead in points at the end.

Did not want to write a dissertation on the technicalities of Judo, Jujitsu, MMA, etc, ad nauseum in the post. Read the message for what it is, a general OPINION.

[Mdrnsamurai]

I have to say that I am already impressed by the responses on this forum. I am currently active on two other forums that seem to spend more time on their computer talking about the Martial Arts rather then Practicing, and the other just dropping F bombs and disrespecting each others respective Art.

I have always held a high opinion of Judo and the other Budo Arts and would just like to see them get the credit they deserve, especially in MMA. After all for years that haven't had a problem crediting BJJ for what they have done.

What exactly is "Judo and BJJ Concepts?"

I think what is meant by "Concepts" is the overall view of the Art as a whole and integrating them together. We do the same thing at my club. We take the rules and training concepts of each art and add and subtract the good and the bad stuff. An example would be that we use BJJ rules to navigate our Newaza Sessions. No 25 seconds Hold downs for Ippon , you must finish with a submission. Starting Newaza from positions rather then the old favorites Back to Back or On your Knees. That's what I think he means by "Concept".

Train Hard, Stay Safe,
Good Luck

Combat Judo Academy

[Jeff Cook]

Richard, a couple of quick thoughts.

BJJ folks give judo credit. Pick up and read some of the more popular books on BJJ and you will see it.

Judo doesn't give any credit to Western styles of grappling for what Kano borrowed from them to incorporate in his jujutsu. Do you have a problem with that too?

Jeff Cook

[Mdrnsamurai]

Judo doesn't give any credit to Western styles of grappling for what Kano borrowed from them to incorporate in his jujutsu. Do you have a problem with that too?

I never said that Judo was perfect, but I wasn't aware of techniques that Kano took from Western Grappling. What techniques are you talking of? I mean obviously I know that Judo wasn't the start of grappling, I know that the Greeks the Romans, the Indians, and probably the Chinese were all grappling before the creation of Judo. So I understand the point you are trying, I think.

I guess this is going to be just as hard.

Train Hard, Stay Safe,
Good Luck

Combat Judo Academy