Traditional Etiquette / Andrew De Luna

[Dan Harden]

The whole idea of ego when standing there with newbies seems inapropriate. Your skills or lack thereof of the materials being presented speaks for itself. Why is it even a topic for discussion? If you don't know the material...you *are* a newbie.

If you were attending your first BJJ class, of say fifteen people, would you deem it appropriate to wear a symbol of rank (black belt) when the only *other* black belt, for purposes of discussion lets say he is a twelve year veteran of the sport with many wins behind him- is the teacher covering material neither you or anyone else in the room knows?
If yes, Why?
No gi classes are a different idea but none-the-less the idea of who is instructing and who knows the material still holds. Neither of which applies to you.

As much as folks try to cloud the issue, there are no complications here. I know an electrical engineer. He has no business stamping structural drawings with a P.E. stamp just because he is an engineer- of a type.
When you step out on to the mat-you either know the material being presented- or you don't.
If you don't-then what are you accomplishing other than making a spectacle of yourself and making yet another (oh so American) mess that someone else has to clean up.
Thank goodness this behaviour is unique to all of us and everyone else finds it equally distasteful.
Cheers
Dan

[kiai]

Maybe beginner's mind is something one finds after long practice, rather than the other way around.

[lucky1899]

Dan,

I don't think persons with convictions about keeping their blackbelt have a problem being newbies. The fact is that if I go to a BJJ class and wear my blackbelt and get tapped out by a blue belt, everyone will know I'm a newbie. Just as was written earlier, you can wear a white belt and people will know by the way you move whether you've trained.

you wrote:If you were attending your first BJJ class, of say fifteen people, would you deem it appropriate to wear a symbol of rank (black belt) when the only *other* black belt, for purposes of discussion lets say he is a twelve year veteran of the sport with many wins behind him- is the teacher covering material neither you or anyone else in the room knows?
If yes, Why?

Yes, I think it's appropriate because a person has years of knowledge in an art the instructor doesn't have knowledge in (at least as much knowledge as it took to get a black belt in "some" art). I'm sure many visceral noises come out of the last sentence b/c many black belts should NOT be wearing them and some blackbelts can't tie them around their waste anymore; nevertheless, they have one.

In addition, is there really material no one else in the room knows; it's just one more way of applying principles. After the technical training, so much of BJJ is "feel" on the ground. The technical manuals of principles are NOT long, the technical manuals of techniques are, so "knowing" is more about "how deep you know" the art.

The comparison of an electrical engineer to a structural one doesn't really hit home because I'm not "watching" the BJJ techniques and "giving my stamp" of approval. My perspective is like an electrical engineer learning about structural engineering from a structural engineer. Obviously, the EE's training in engineering will give him a "head start" against someone just coming out of high school.

You wrote:
When you step out on to the mat-you either know the material being presented- or you don't.
If you don't-then what are you accomplishing other than making a spectacle of yourself and making yet another (oh so American) mess that someone else has to clean up.

I assume that you mean "American" to be bombastic, egotistical and arrogant but again that is NOT determined by the belt you have on; it's determined by what you do on the mat.

Regards,

A. DeLuna

[kdlarman]

Honetly I have never understood the big deal. My black belt holds sentimental value for me because it was presented to me by people I respect and care about. It has meaning and significance for me within the context of the group I train with. But once I step outside my dojo and step into someone else's, well, the rules there apply. So I always make sure I take my black belt and I take a white belt. If I'm in someplace new, I identify myself, where I've trained, and the rank I hold. Then I ask which belt they'd prefer I wear. No biggie. Their house, their rules. FWIW in my experience most simply say wear the black belt but thanks for asking...

On a related note, my normal training gi have a small patch on them from our group (Seidokan). I have another gi with no patches in the closet. That's the "visiting others gi" for me.

If I'm wearing a white belt it doesn't mean I've somehow sacrificed or "given up" my rank. It means nothing to me at all. I'm just training and following their protocols. Frankly most of the time I'd rather fade into the back so I can focus on learning as much as I can without distraction...

To me it is like walking into someone's home. If you notice everyone else takes their shoes off at the door, you take your shoes off. It is just common courtesy to me...

[Samurai Jack]

I have talked to both Howard and Andrew. I got their side, each of them. I am neutral, I don't have a concern either way, and personally it is between them. Yet, because of their situation, there is something to say about Koryu arts as general understood by Westerners; to what degree is there adhesion, if any, as to what is interpreted as koryu mores (protocol) , and what degree is a tolerable breech, and the result.

I have been with Japanese associates who have or do study koryu arts (per the Japanese vernacular) and here stories about their experiences of breeching protocol and by our standards would be considered sadistic brutal torture. These individuals where pre-world war martial artists. They would also tell me of how strict school delineating the punishment for breeching protocol and or breaking a rule -for those of us who went to Catholic School in the day, the nuns where Saints in comparison to the Japanese teachers who where sadistic on good days. Yet by today’s standards and even in Japan with the Sumo instructor incident such breeching of protocol now is seen as unacceptable extreme harassment, hazing, and sadistic behavior.

What people forget (I think it is because they practice it and thus, close to it) is the word martial in martial arts, and stressing in practice heavily the word art. The koryu mores is military, was to make obedient soldiers, and training was boot camp. And your master was also your drill instructor. The culture was military, and not recreational. That latter is what it is now, today. Therefore, culture, and as a result protocol has changed. That change has been dictated by current global times and each generation over time conforming to society. Therefore to what degree does anyone conform whole heartily and completely to authentic koryu protocol or mores practicing a koryu anymore?

I personally, generically without judgment of anyone’s comportment, based on my discussions and experiences and understandings from my exposure that no one today conducts themselves truly and completely to the mores of koryu. I say this based on the experiences I had observing those Japanese individuals watching other school’s protocals, and rites etc. expressing discontent for what they deemed as ignoble displays of koryu mores. The way the students where instructed to handle their practice weapons in ceremony and non-combative situations. At other instances, the complaints where directed to this subject, proper dress, rites and rituals related to Japanese culture and koryu practice.

For those who chide an individual for not surrendering their rank as a highly dastardly act, may consider in the near future this will be acceptable action. Just as the many other things within the mores of a koryu that where not acceptable have become. Hmmm….teaching the art, accepting in the school other then those in your clan…say…gygene!

[K. Cantwell]

For those who chide an individual for not surrendering their rank as a highly dastardly act, may consider in the near future this will be acceptable action. Just as the many other things within the mores of a koryu that where not acceptable have become. Hmmm….teaching the art, accepting in the school other then those in your clan…say…gygene!

I think you need to be a bit more careful with your terms. Most koryu that I know of don't use a belt system, so this issue simply wouldn't come up. There are no Shinto Muso-ryu or Katori Shinto-ryu "Black Belts." It's an iemoto system for the most part, with classical licensure that has to do with your relationship to your teacher and the ryu. As a matter of fact, the higher one goes, the more responsibility one has to the ryu and the less important the individual is. (Even if there is no one head to speak of, you still find classical licenses for the most part.)

Your joining of "surrending rank" and "koryu" just don't go together for me. It's simply a non-starter really.

As anyone involved in legitimate classical arts will tell you, you don't matter; it's what you can do for the ryu that counts. I would imagine this to be the case with those classical schools that do have belts, which is a relatively small number compared to those that use a more classical system. In other words, if you are somebody that needs that belt or a visual representation of your progress, most koryu aren't for you. It's simply about the training and preserving the ryu. As a matter of fact, if you need any sort of external validation, koryu may not work out. There is no guarantee that you will be awarded any license, no matter how long you train.

I'm not sure if you are just using the term "koryu" as a catchall or mean it to refer to a certain type of art (don't know what you mean by "vernacular"...koryu usually carries with a specific historical connotation), but to the vast majority of the arts classified as "koryu," the topic of this thread would be irrelevant. (And would probably get you laughed out of the dojo. If I weren’t afraid of getting a naginata on the noggin, I would ask my Buko-ryu teacher how long till my black belt just for giggles.)

Most of the anecdotes I've heard in my training about those specifically looking for the license/rank don't have happy endings.

Kevin Cantwell

[Samurai Jack]

I think you need to be a bit more careful with your terms. Most koryu that I know of don't use a belt system, so this issue simply wouldn't come up.

Cantwell my friend is many Koryu have taken up a belt system, true it isn't all of them and I didn't impy that. I have been told there are Koryu that use both licenses and rank.

[K. Cantwell]

Cantwell my friend is many Koryu have taken up a belt system, true it isn't all of them and I didn't impy that. I have been told there are Koryu that use both licenses and rank.

Internally perhaps, but the point is that this crossover issue simply wouldn't happen within traditional martial traditions. A Tatsumi-ryu guy that decides to take up Maniwa Nen-ryu wouldn't expect that his prior training would have any bearing on his standing within his "new" ryu. It wouldn't even enter his mind. Everything is case-by-case, of course, and the teacher could decide to make some modification for some reason, but the student would never expect this really. (There would also be issues of taking up two schools with the same primary weapon. You don't usually see that. If people study more than one koryu seriously, it is usually schools with different primary weapons.)

If someone with experience in the art is visiting a branch dojo or something, or at an internal seminar, he would probably line up at the end to avoid the "When did you start?" conversations with everyone, or more likely, the teacher would have already organized things so as to avoid confusion. It isn't really a big deal and certainly there is no custom or issue that would need to be worked out. I've lined up junior to people that I am senior to on occasion simply because it worked out that way at the end of practice…no big deal.

Within my SMR organization are some people that happen to have high-level licenses in other arts. This has no bearing whatsoever on where they line up or their authority within SMR. Their sempai may very well not have the same level license, but they are still their sempai.

The point I'm trying to make is that this isn't really a "koryu" issue and should never really come to be.

Kevin Cantwell