Traditional Etiquette / Andrew De Luna

[Howard Popkin]

Mr. Deluna,

I noticed on your website that you were wearing a black belt during a trip to the Roppokai while visiting Okamoto Sensei and Asahara Sensei. I also noticed that in your picture with Roy Goldberg Sensei of the Kodokai you were wearing a black belt also.

http://texasaikijujutsu.com/misc.aspx

I can only surmise that you received your black belt in both systems this year.

Congratulations surely are in order.

How long have you been studying with the Texas group ??? Just curious, because Jose Lopez Sensei has never spoken about you and I didn't meet you when I was in Texas.

Oh well, maybe we can get to train together soon. I look forward to that !!

Congratulations again !

Howard Popkin
Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai
New York

[Jitsumania]

Mr. Deluna, I was reading the above post and found it quite interesting. I am a card carrying member of the Texas Roppokai and study directly under Jose Lopez in the Houston Study Group and have not had the opportunity to meet you to date. I dont believe I have seen you in attendance at the last 3-4 Trainings hosted by Nishida Sensei in Fort worth during Okamoto Senseis training visits to Texas. I am always honored to meet upper rank in the Daito Ryu system. Hope to see you at the next Roppokai gathering where Okamoto Sensei will be present, as the assistance of Shodan and above are always welcome by the Mudansha of the Ryu.

[lucky1899]

Howy,

I am neither a blackbelt in Roppokai or Kodokai. As is stated in my website: http://texasaikijujutsu.com/Instructors.aspx, I am a blackbelt under the Renshinkan dojo under the Toshimi Matsuda lineage. My visits with Okamoto and Goldberg Sensei are a sign of me experiencing other lines of Daito Ryu. If you remember, I have the "PM" to show if you've forgotten, I asked you if I could attend your Okamoto seminar in NY and you directed me to Jose Lopez. Jose Lopez (and I have the e-mails and witnesses to prove this as well) wrote that [paraphrasing], I needed to provide him a letter from my instructor in Japan in order to join his study group and/or attend the Okamoto seminar. I was not going to go through the trouble to obtain a letter when I already had planned to visit the Roppokai Tokyo dojo. I wonder if Okamoto would appreciate these huge obstacles placed in front of person trying to learn and experience Roppokai.

As far as wearing my blackbelt at seminars or dojos I visit, that's what I do. I would never ask a visiting martial artist to remove his belt and if I were asked to do so, then I wouldn't train. Currently, I am a student of Ota Ikuo Sensei of the Daito Ryu Renshinkan dojo (recently renamed Shofuku) and as far as I'm concerned only he can take away my belt.

Rick Torres,

As stated above, I'm not a member of the Roppokai nor is it my desire to be a member. I know your study group leader, Jaideep (we study MSR together), very well and you are more than welcome to drop by my dojo anytime (wearing any color belt or carrying any card you wish).

Regards,
A. De Luna

[Howard Popkin]

Mr. Deluna,

Thanks for responding. Actually, you don't have to wonder. Those are Okamoto's rules, not mine or Mr. Lopez's.

We follow the rules and regulations set forth by the Roppokai.

All students who practice Roppokai begin as a white belt.

Frankly, I'm shocked that Okamoto Sensei allowed you to practice wearing that, unless it was under some false pre-tenses.

You claim to be a study group of the Kodokai. Ask Sensei Goldberg if he likes you wearing your black belt next time you work out with him. I'd love to hear his response. Actually, I might just give him a call and ask him myself. We go back a VERY long way and talk from time to time.

All Japanese Budo involves trying to remove the ego to better oneself and the system they represent. Whether or not you are a good martial artist is irrelevant and it has nothing to do with "taking away your black belt", it has to do with trying to show that you have an empty cup for the instructor to fill.

I wish you the best in your search for knowledge, but it seems unnecessary as you already have your "black belt".

Best of luck,

Howard Popkin
Jun Dairi Kyoju
Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai

[Howard Popkin]

Mr. Deluna,

Did you ask Okamoto Sensei and Asahara Sensei for permission to post their likeness on the internet ????

Common (or maybe uncommon) courtesy suggests that you ask for permission to post a picture of someone.

It is possible that Okamoto didn't want those pictures up on the internet ?

Looks to me like a few fine examples of you attemping to say "Look at me, I trained with Okamoto, Goldberg, Asahara, I must be good ".

If you don't mind, since you are so comfortable just showing up at the Roppokai without getting permission first, please get a letter from Okamoto clearly stating that it is ok for you to post his picture on his website. If you can't, I would ask you politely to remove it, along with the picture of Asahara.

Please make no mistake, You are still more then welcome to practice at my dojo anytime, ESPECIALLY wearing your Renshinkan or any other black belt you choose.

Once again, Best of luck. You're obviously gonna need it !!!!

Howard Popkin
Jun Dairi Kyoju
Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai

[skylinerR32]

To clarify slightly on what Mr. Popkin stated earlier:

Okamoto Sensei has a standing rule that anyone from any martial art is welcome to join the Roppokai, but out of respect for the other legitimate Daito-Ryu lineages, permission for attendance and proof of rank for an active member within another aiki-jujutsu organization is requested from that hombu dojo to avoid any possible misunderstandings or misrepresentations.

If a person has the policy to allow students to wear whatever rank he/she attained in another martial art - great - however, imo, when visiting another man's house seeking knowledge, one should respect his rules and the individuals studying under that roof.

From The Karate Kid:
Daniel: "Hey, what kind of belt you got?"
Mr. Miyagi: "Brown leather - JCPenny $4.99, you like? Hahahahah!!"
Daniel: "No, I mean..."
Mr. Miyagi: "In Okinawa belt means you no have to tie up pants with rope! Hahahahaha!
Daniel-san, Karate here [points to head], Karate here [points to heart], Karate never here [points to belt], you understand?"

Replace the word Karate with ANY other martial art and it still works

Thank you,
Jim Yang

[Jitsumania]

Mr. Deluna I would like to thank you for your invitation to visit your Dojo and allowing me permission to wear whatever color belt or carry whatever card on your premises. I extend you the same courtesy when you are in the Victoria area (American Karate Institute). Quite frankly, my 40 years of training in the arts has shown me quite a different etiquette about how and where I display my Yudansha rankings. Whenever I travel to another persons Dojo there is always a White belt in the carry bag and this is never an option. BTW I wore that white belt all the way through my training in Aikido under Jorge Garcia Sensei, Jaideep, and other Aikido Yudansha you know. (even in my own Dojo) till I recieved my Shodan. I am extremely proud of my white belt in Roppokai and see it as a symbol of the metaphorical empty cup as Mr. Popkin stated. My God bless you in your endeavours Mr. Deluna.

[lucky1899]

Howard,

Thank you for your kind wishes. I will not remove the photos. I don't state anywhere on my website that I train with Roppokai, in fact the header of the photo reads "my visit to Tokyo shibu...". I don't have a study group with the Kodokai and if you read through my website, you would've known that. I talk with Goldberg Sensei almost weekly and he asked me to remove the photos of him, which I did, as I consider him a mentor.

Let me tell you about my visit to Japan. I went to Okamoto's house instead of his dojo and introduced myself. He invited me into his home where he hosted me to sushi and Japanese wine. He was a very, very kind host. After talking with me for about five hours, he called one of his students and told them that I would be joining them for practice as he was going to Osaka the following day. His kindness is beyond words. I don't know about his organizational rules since I'm not in the organization; it just seems that his actions on that day went against the grain of those rules. Again, my appreciation is without words. You should try emulating your mentor sometime.

As you are not part of the Kodokai, I'm not sure what your issues with Goldberg sensei and my relationship are; my understanding is that you were once a student of the Kodokai. I will kindly ask you to empty your cup when it comes to others' relationships.

With regards to which belt I wear, I trained in Jorge Garcia's dojo for six months wearing my blackbelt. I also trained at Hiroshi Kato's seminars wearing my blackbelt. If my cup were full, I would've never attended these trainings. In fact the whole premise falls on itself. Empty your cup when you visit others to train??? Why would I go train if I wasn't searching for knowledge. Surely, I'm not spending my money to travel around the world to show people I'm good. In fact, I think my Daito Ryu technique sticks. That's WHY I train...so that it gets better.

Again if an instructor asks me to remove my belt, then I just won't train. I believe that is being courteous. Sometimes you have to agree to disagree.

I have an ego and I'm trying to let go of it through my Buddhist studies and my training. I don't think my belt has anything to do with my ego; I don't wear it out of respect for my skills, I wear it out of respect for my teacher who believes I have the skills.

Good luck to you.

Regards,

A. De Luna

[Howard Popkin]

Mr. Deluna,

Thank your for explaining how the situation went.

Your explaination of your meeting with Okamoto Sensei tells the story beautifully.

Please, and I mean no disprespect whatsoever, study a bit of Japanese protocal.

It will truly help you in the long run.

I wish you best of luck in your Shugyo, what ever path you choose to take.

Howard

[Dan Harden]

I don't know this Andrew fellow, so I am not talking to him or about him. This thread just touched on a conversation I am currently having- both in person and on the net with some long time DR practitioners, who are concerned about some choices being currently made. But it speaks to those n Budo across the board

To the larger crowd, I would be -very- careful to avoid doing this. If you are going to assume-then don't make the embarassing choice. This attitude about wearing a symbol of rank in a room with students of a style you do not know would be considered by every teacher I know to be confusing, misleading or even outright fraud to those in attendance. You would have no business confusing others who may perhaps be looking for guidance or help and watching your movements as "a model" unbeknownst to you. And futher you would be offering yourself as an embarrassing representative for the teacher present- requiring and burdening him or his students with an explanation for this odd behavior- either openly or behind your back. Most would consider you either a damn fool or a fraud. I think the majority would favor the later assessment. In either case don't opt to be "that guy" and create a disturbance-it isn't about you.

Cultural gaps
Do not misunderstand the indulgences or tolerance of Japanese teachers as any sort of approval either. Some would be laughing their asses off at you-in private-and would readily expect their students to straighten you out. If you were so stupid as to not even get the advice of the teachers head guys? Well, that pretty much speaks for itself as well. As for the students? I can't help but think some guys would either have a field day with someone with that much presumption or pity them for such overt ignorance. Ignorance isn't a pass. It just validates your own stupidity. It's why you still get arrested and convicted as guilty as charged -in spite of your ignorance. There is a lovely expression in budo about being so ignorant in public that you do something dumb while not getting just how stupid you look. It's called "stepping on your dick." This idea speaks to the lowest understanding. More usually expressed in the fast-food dojo types that seem to be ever increasingly embraced by -some- American teachers of these Japanese arts.

Japanese tradition and American schools.
Many Koryu got smart about what schools and people THIER arts are taught or shown in. Many, if not most are doing so by a method wherein the school has to be vetted and the parent organization looks at the overall tenor of the place and the people in question. It should not go unnoticed that –some- American teachers of these Japanese arts are trying to "create" this weird, (clearly artificial) serious type of atmosphere, and while it is their choice, in the opinion of their own people they are clearly not up to the task and doing so...in the worst of all possible places.


Again do not misconstrue. I don't know this guy. He could be a fine fellow. It is the "idea" it puts forth and how it may play out for most other guys in Budo that I am addressing.
Cheers
Dan

[Howard Popkin]

Mr Deluna called me on the phone and emphatically stated that he speaks Japanese fluently and that Okamoto Sensei understood his reason for being there

To his credit, he was very polite and respectful on the phone

Howard Popkin

[Mark Murray]

E-Budo has rules.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/announcement.php?f=13

Some have changed recently, so please reread them.

Thank you,
Mark

[Howard Popkin]

Did I break any ? If I did, I'm sorry. I consider this matter closed.

Howard

[Woody]

I find this interesting. Had A. De Luna followed the rules of a certain organization he is not a member of, he probably would not have had the opportunity to visit with Okamoto sensei nor train at his dojo. Some say he broke customary and obvious rules by his direct approach. Okamoto sensei apparently did not object too strenuously. He invited A. De Luna into his home and also invited him to train at his dojo. Shouldn't Okamoto sensei be able to "break" the rules of his own organization?
I think we Americans get more hung up on Japanese protocol than the Japanese do sometimes. Yes, I found the Japanese to be very tolerant/forgiving of ignorant gaijins. They also did not expect gaijins to understand the complexities of their culture in the same way as they do. I don't know how Okamoto sensei feels about A. De Luna's visit. Maybe it was presumptious or even rude. But he did get to meet with one of the greats and train at his dojo. Perhaps the direct approach isn't so bad afterall.

[skylinerR32]

I don't understand. How would following the rules have prohibited this gentleman from the opportunity to visit and train with Okamoto Sensei?

This was not a matter of Japanese cultural nuance or protocol, only common courtesy. I would love to visit and train with Kuroda Tetsuzan Sensei in Japan - however, I think he would find it very surprising and probably disrespectful if I showed up at the front door of his private residence as an unannounced total stranger without any type of introduction from a person known and trusted by him.

Showing up a sensei's public dojo and requesting permission to train is one thing, showing up at a person's home is quite another.

Jim Yang