Likes Likes:  0
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Okinawan Sword/Weapons before Japanes invasion

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Kanatoko Mountain
    Posts
    91
    Likes (received)
    0

    Question

    Greetings to all!

    I was wondering, most people forget or do not recognize that the Okinawan people dealt with their own before the Japanese invasion. We think of Okinawan MA as just Karate and Farming and Fishing tools. I was wondering about the weapons used by the guards(soldiers) of their goverment, specially the sword. How was the Okinawan sword? Was it very much Chinese like and influenced by these? What other weapons did they use before the Japanese invasion?

    And again, did their weapons change after the Japanese invasion? (I know they did, but was it very drastic?)

    Best,
    Arnold - Kanatokogakure Shugenjutsu

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV, USA
    Posts
    482
    Likes (received)
    1

    Lightbulb Origins of the Ryukyuan Busaa (fighting arts) ?

    Originally posted by KAMUII ... I was wondering, most people forget or do not recognize that the Okinawan people dealt with their own before the Japanese invasion. We think of Okinawan MA as just Karate and Farming and Fishing tools. I was wondering about the weapons used by the guards(soldiers) of their government, specially the sword. How was the Okinawan sword? Was it very much Chinese like and influenced by these? What other weapons did they use before the Japanese invasion?

    And again, did their weapons change after the Japanese invasion? (I know they did, but was it very drastic?)
    Mr. Vargas,

    Interesting question ... and one of some debate. There are several schools of thought. I'll do my best to briefly outline them here.<ol><li>All Okinawan weapons are indigenous and derived from farming/fishing implements.

    <li>All Okinawan weapons are indigenous and were taught/ wielded by the Peichin (King's guards analogous to Japanese samurai or medieval European knights). After the Satsuma invasion and the Okinawan king was taken to mainland Japan, the Peichin went into hiding across the Ryukyus and taught their respective weapons in fishing and farming villages ... giving rise to the perception that the weapons were derived from farming/fishing implements.

    <li>All Okinawan weapons (and empty hand techniques for that matter) are derivative of mainland Chinese wushu. The Chinese arts were taught to the Okinawans by envoys and shipwreck survivors from China.

    <li> During and after the Satsuma occupation, the Okinawan arts were heavily influenced by the Japanese military arts, in particular Jigen-ryu (I believe).</ol>Like most folks who've spent time looking into the history of the Ryukyuan busaa (fighting arts), I tend to think that the reality is a combination of the four schools of thought. Certainly, indigenous fighting arts existed in the Ryukyus before the Japanese or Chinese ever came along. As a Royal Court existed (three in fact), it stands to reason that an official military or para-military King's guard would exist and train in fighting arts.

    When the Chinese arrived, they certainly would have heavily influenced the martial and cultural arts of the region, as would the Japanese. As Okinawa lies on an important trading route, it possible (though I am aware of no documentation) that European traders had some influence as well. Today, one could argue that modern karate practice has been heavily influenced by the American military presence on Okinawa ... particularly in the form of calisthenics and weight training.

    Some of the weapons used in the Ryukyuan arts are:<ul>
    <li> Kon a.k.a. Rokushaku Bo (Staff) - Found in fighting arts worldwide

    <li> Sai (Iron Trident/Truncheon) - Along with its variant the Jitte, this weapon is also found in Chinese arts

    <li> Tonfa/Tsuifa (Wooden Truncheon/Police PR-24) - Another weapon which may have ties to Chinese wushu

    <li> Kama (Sickle) - Certainly a farming tool, but also found in martial use on mainland Japan as well as in Europe (albeit in a much larger form)

    <li> Nunchaku (Wooden Flail) - Once believed to be derived from a tool used to pound rice, now believed to be derived from a horses bridle. Again this weapon has counterparts in Chinese wushu as well as Medieval Europe.

    <li> Suruchin (Weighted cord or chain) - Counterparts are found in Chinese wushu as well as mainland Japanese arts (paired with sickle to form Kusurigama).

    <li> Eiku (Oar) - I am not aware of any counterparts in other fighting systems, but it seems anywhere there are fisherman, this would be a practical weapon.

    <li> Rochen & Tinbe (Short Spear/machete and Shield) - Different schools use different Rochen (blades), but the principles remain about the same. The Tinbe (small shield or buckler) is often made of a turtle's shell. However, some believe that it could just as easily be a woven fisherman's hat. In this school of thought, the Tinbe is used more to hide the Rochen than to defend against another blade.</ul>Other weapons exist, these are just a few examples. As for the Okinawan sword, I've heard it referenced, but am not aware of any school which teaches a uniquely Okinawan kenjutsu. That said, I am far from the last word on the subject.

    If you are interested in further research, I recommend the following books to get you started:<ul><li> Zen Kobudo by Mark Bishop

    <li> Okinawan Karate: Second Edition by Mark Bishop

    <li> History and Traditions of Okinawan Karate by Hokama Tetsuhiro

    <li> Modern Bujutsu and Budo by Donn Draeger

    <li> Nunchaku and Sai by Sakagami Ryusho

    <li> Unante: Second Edition by John Sells'

    <li> Ryukyu Kobudo Vol 1-3 by Inoue Motokatsu (May have title wrong)

    <li> Ryukyu Kobudo Taikan by Taira Shinken (In Japanese)

    <li> Ryukyu Kobudo Taikan (English translation of above) by Patrick McCarthy found in Koryu Uchinadi Vol. 1</ul> This list is by no means exhaustive. Keep in mind that, depending on who you talk to, each of these books may contain unintentional mistakes or misrepresentations. However, they represent the best work on the subject which is currently available to the public.

    I hope this helps. If I've made any errors, I trust Mario, one of the Joes or another intrepid researcher will take the time to correct me.

    Take care,
    Doug Daulton

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Erie,Pa USA
    Posts
    258
    Likes (received)
    0

    Post





    In the 'Bugeisha' journal, issue 4 & 5 ,1997.Their is a two part article by Mark Bishop;" Okinawan Kobudo Weaponry, hidden methods, ancient myths,metal weapons(bladed)".The article is about the same subject as this thread,inwhich Their is a picture of a single-haned Okinawan sword.If you do not have a copy of 'Bugeisha' e-mail me ,and I can send you a copy of the article.





    ken allgeier
    " The FUTURE is UNWRITTEN,KNOW YOUR RIGHTS"
    The Clash.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Kanatoko Mountain
    Posts
    91
    Likes (received)
    0

    Thumbs up

    Thanks Doug and Ken for the info.

    Ken I will email you for a copy, ok? Thanks!

    And yes, this is interesting because hardly anyone talks about the Okinawans before the Japanes Invasion.

    So , I will be asking a bit more...in time...


    Best,
    Arnold - Kanatokogakure Shugenjutsu

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Columbia, Missouri
    Posts
    513
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    SPC Jason C. Diederich, MOARNG
    FEMAS, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Kali-Silat
    www.geocities.com/shaolinninjamarine

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Kanatoko Mountain
    Posts
    91
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Thanks Jason!

    I was wondering if before the Japanese invasion if there was any sword besides the Tinbei(sword and shield) as for the use of the goverment guards? Or maybe spears?

    Best,
    Arnold - Kanatokogakure Shugenjutsu

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Columbia, Missouri
    Posts
    513
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    The only Okinawan spear I ran into (on Okinawa) was the nunti, which I believe is a fairly recent invention. The story passed around by the grandmasters I met (Kise Fusei and Shimabukuro Eizo sensei) was that, due to the unavailability of metal on Okinawa (it's a coral reef), metal weapons and armor were unavailable; hence the weapons tended to be descended from farm implements or readily available natural materials.
    SPC Jason C. Diederich, MOARNG
    FEMAS, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Kali-Silat
    www.geocities.com/shaolinninjamarine

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    3,324
    Likes (received)
    48

    Default

    In 1509, a monument was built at Shuri, Okinawa, to honor the accomplishments of the Ryukyuan King Sho Shin. In 1926, the Okinawan scholar Fuyu Iha interpreted that part of the monument reading "Swords and bows and arrows exclusively are accumulated as weapons in the protection of the country" to mean that the king had ordered the collection of all the iron weapons in the country. In 1987, Professor Mitsugu Sakihara of the University of Hawaii showed that this was a misinterpretation of the text, and that King Sho Shin was actually stockpiling arms rather than suppressing them.

    Meanwhile, in 1609, during the Satsuma invasion of Okinawa, the Japanese lost 7 musketeers, 6 archers, and 44 pikemen during a forty-day campaign that caused the death of over 500 Okinawans.

    Finally, in 1669, the Japanese closed the only swordsmithy on Okinawa. During the 1930s Fuyu Iha and Funakoshi Gichin claimed that this closure caused Ryukyuan farmers to develop karate for the purpose of self-defense. Fuyu is also responsible for the theory that peasants who lacked weapons created karate. But, as this theory was not publicly advanced until 1942, it may have more to do with Japanese militarism of the 1930s than historical fact.

    Anyway, taken together, this implies that the Okinawans had iron weapons, probably obtained from their trade contacts in Malaka and Fujien Province. (Hey, the Okinawans smuggle quite a few MAC-10s into Japan today, so why not import swords back then, when it was still legal?)

    A good source of older bibliographic information is Shunzo Sakamaki, *Ryukyu: A Bibliographic Guide to Okinawan Studies* (Honolulu: University of Hawai’i Press, 1963).

    [Edited by Joseph Svinth on 01-25-2001 at 04:57 AM]

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Kanatoko Mountain
    Posts
    91
    Likes (received)
    0

    Thumbs up

    Thanks a lot Joe!

    Best,
    Arnold - Kanatokogakure Shugenjutsu

Similar Threads

  1. Okinawan karate, Japanese karate and Koryu
    By morpheus in forum Ryukyuan Unarmed Martial Arts
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 5th November 2007, 01:25
  2. Motobu Choki
    By Troll Basher in forum Ryukyuan Unarmed Martial Arts
    Replies: 99
    Last Post: 25th August 2005, 19:12
  3. What makes your karate Okinawan?
    By Timothy.G.B. in forum Ryukyuan Unarmed Martial Arts
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 11th November 2004, 20:10
  4. is Okinawan different than Japanesse??
    By seskoad in forum Member's Lounge
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 27th August 2004, 02:02
  5. Favourite thing about Okinawan Karate
    By Timothy.G.B. in forum Ryukyuan Unarmed Martial Arts
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 20th July 2004, 07:01

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •