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Thread: juji gatame for military

  1. #16
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    What DIDN'T work was the US Army had a manual with great techniques in it, but NO effective, standardized program to teach techniques, and more importantly, to teach the principles of H2H combat.
    Bingo. Matt hit the nail on the head. I'm old school Army and the Okazaki/Danzanryu-influenced H2H taught back then was Good Stuff, BUT, as Matt and Kevin have pointed out, it wasn't taught, wasn't trained, wasn't used.

    I put in maybe 3-4 hours throughout Basic in the sandpit, and another couple hours with pugil sticks. After that, until I arrived at my first duty station and was tasked with teaching H2H to my company, I never saw any other troops training and never saw the FM again.

    The mentality was that as long as you had your weapons, you'd never need to close and engage face-to-face.

    Fact is, combat has never been that clear cut. And the environment our Soldiers find themselves in today is by and far the most fluid and varied the Army's seen in a long time.

    Now, I had reservations when I was first exposed to MACP. I thought, without knowing much about it, that it looked like it had been developed by a UFC fanboy who'd tossed out the baby with the bathwater.

    However, I'm nothing if not open-minded, and after meeting a few troops (I"m a DA civilian these days), who were training the new system, and getting to know some of the folks teaching it, I saw that it is, as Kevin says, it's a teaching methodology and not a 'style'.

    The main points are that they ARE training it, they ARE getting together outside the structured classes and practicing, and they ARE learning the methodology.

    And in today's battlespace, the things these kids are doing are applicable and are functional. I've read some of the AARs, Ive read some of the personal accounts and have talked to a few folks who effectively apprehended perps or defended themselves and their squaddies in a furball inside a hooch or alleyway.

    Is MACP perfect? Nope. But folks like Kevin and Matt are making it work, and are making it better all the time. It is evolving.

    Is MACP budo? Sortofnotreallykinda. I think there's room for budo concepts and training ideas in there, but again, MACP isn't a style it's a method. There's lots of room for testing and applying methods from a lot of different disciplines.

    Maybe someday, MACP WILL be a 'style' (whatever that really means, and no clue as to whether that'd be a Good Thing or not), but now, it's an effective tool for training specific combative ideas and tactics.

    YMMV, of course.

    (Caveat, I don't DO MACP, that's a young man's game, and I've got too many after-market parts, I'll stick with my sword and sticks and jujutsu, thanks).
    Chuck Gordon
    Mugendo Budogu
    http://www.budogu.com/

  2. #17
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    Jeff --

    The text and pictures can be found online at http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncframe.htm -- look down at the bottom.

  3. #18
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    Joe, I love you man. Do you mind if I put a link to your page from my combatives page?

    Jeff Cook

  4. #19
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    Jeff --

    Go for it.

    Captain Smith's stuff, also down at the bottom of that web page, is worth looking at, too. Besides the Army stuff during WWI, Smith was also among the pioneers of judo instruction for New York State Police and guards at Sing Sing. Since New York was one of the first states to provide formal training to police and prison guards, their programs provided models for police forces throughout the USA.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by leavittk View Post
    We grappled a little, I achieved dominance, and buttstroked him".


    I completely misread that line the first time through...

  6. #21
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    For history buffs out there since we are mentioning CPT Smith. If I recall correctly, he first started his program out at Fort Myer, VA...which if all goes well in the next month or so, I will be conducting training there in Jiujitsu and MACP.

    Again, if I recall correctly...it seems that maybe Fort Myer could be considered the first birth place of Martial Arts in the U.S? Or at least Judo/Jiujitsu maybe?

    Anyway, this thought just came to mind.

  7. #22
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    US Naval Academy had classes in judo as early as 1905, so Smith is a decade later. Also, during WWI, most Army camps had boxers or wrestlers teaching courses. Boxer Benny Leonard was at Camp Upton, on Long Island. Jujutsuka Risher Thornberry was at Camp Lewis, in Washington State, A.J. Drexel Biddle was at Paris Island, SC (it didn't get called Parris Island until after the war), and so on. The US Army didn't have rifles, let alone tanks or artillery pieces, for the hundreds of thousands of conscripts, so management made do with what it had.

    In other early stuff, J.J. O'Brien was showing tricks to police departments by 1900. Maeda, Tomita, and Higashi all gave demos for NYPD, and by 1909, NYPD was teaching judo-based techniques in its defensive tactics classes for new officers. The instructors in those days included Patrolman Isador Cantor, Sgt. Thomas M. Shaw and Patrolman (later Commissioner) Arthur Wallander. The NYPD physical training program of 1913 was designed by Captain Herman J. Koehler, instructor of physical culture at the US Military Academy at West Point. The head of the program in 1913 was Inspector Cahalane.

    Chicago detectives were also doing jujutsu by the very early 1910s; their trainer was J.J. O'Brien, mentioned above. This is documented by a photo in the Chicago Historical Society's online collection. As an aside, the lieutenant of detectives shown in that photo was linked to Irish Mob boss Dion O'Bannion. Chicago patrol officers, on the other hand, were more often tied to Al Capone.

    Socialists also saw judo in Chicago, at Eugene V. Debs' presidential primary of 1904. The demonstrator was a Japanese fellow then living near Houston, Texas. Later, he went back to Japan, where he eventually became head of the Japanese Communist Party.

  8. #23
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    Cool, thanks for the information!

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Cook View Post
    I had some interesting discussions with Matt on the phone years ago when this MACP thing was coming about. One of my remarks to him was my strong disagreement that the stuff in the older 21-150's "doesn't work." It DOES work. What DIDN'T work was the US Army had a manual with great techniques in it, but NO effective, standardized program to teach techniques, and more importantly, to teach the principles of H2H combat.

    Jay, if you liked those older 21-150's (boy, I would LOVE to get my hands on a copy of the 1942 edition! Any help?) you would like the 21-150 that was replaced by MACP.

    The empasis on BJJ TRAINING PRINCIPLES is what makes the program work - not necessarily the techniques. BJJ techniques are actually judo/JJJ techniques anyway. What makes BJJ unique and different are the training drills, combinations, etc. - and the different competitive rule-set. The competitive rule-set allows Soldiers to train relatively safely but in an aggressive manner against a resisting, somewhat-skilled opponent. Sparring is an essential method of combat training. Kinda like MOUT training with paintball, simunitions, or MILES gear. Just like we don't shoot real bullets at each other while practicing infantry tactics for combat, we don't try to kill our partners when we practice combatives. But we DAMN sure develop the ability, motivation, and wherewithal to do so.

    Jeff Cook
    Fair enough.

    The 1942 edition of 21-150 appears to be published in full at http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncframe.htm. It is just beneath the links to CPT Smith jujutsu manual. I stumbled across a paper version of the 1942 at a flea market. It is being carefully preserved.

    It's interesting that you mention sparring as necessary for developing effectiveness. You wouldn't believe it, but there are some guys out in the world who argue that it isn't necessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Vail View Post

    It's interesting that you mention sparring as necessary for developing effectiveness. You wouldn't believe it, but there are some guys out in the world who argue that it isn't necessary.
    There are guys out there who believe they can throw people without touching them, too.

    And that believe in the death touch. Or that fights never go to the ground;

    Or that physical conditioning and athleticism mean nothing in "actual combat;"

    And there are folks that believe that activities like striking and grappling with stuffed "manimals" in their basements is "preparation for combat" with a live human being.

    Which is like saying sex with those ultra realistic sex dolls is preparation for real sex, no?

    and so on, and so on....

  11. #26
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    It may not prepare you for sex...but it is still fun!

  12. #27
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    Spoken like a man with first hand experience, Kevin. I'll leave that to you. But you might want to get out more and meet real girls....

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Or that fights never go to the ground;

    Or that physical conditioning and athleticism mean nothing in "actual combat;"

    And there are folks that believe that activities like striking and grappling with stuffed "manimals" in their basements is "preparation for combat" with a live human being.
    Yeah, met a few of those guys.

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