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Thread: Teatcher and student etiquette

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nii View Post
    Get rid of him. There are plenty of better students that can take his place =)

    Though I have to admit that sometimes I may come of as a little disrespectful to my own sensei, but that is mostly because of my immense enthusiasm involving that martial art. Youthful energy perhaps? Or immaturity?

    Of course this student of yours went too far but regardless in the future don't take a little disrespect as insulting. The student might just be too excited to learn =)
    I have been a teacher for many years and understand immense enthusiasm, youthful energy and immaturity in students. Deal with it all the time 4 days a week. Disrespect must not be confused with the above. If you approach an instructor/Sensei,etc with attitude and exhibit disrespectful behavior it is exactly what it is, disrespect. It will be a factor to affect the student teacher relationship.
    Don't mean to come accross as being crass to you NII, but one must label it for what it is.
    When techniques are taught they should be open for examination and possible alternative application. This should occur only after the student has grasped the basic concept/technique application in accordance with their Ryu/School/training group,etc curriculum.
    There are many ways to swing a stick, throw a punch/kich or apply a lock, but in the end what matters is wether it will impact the target effectively.
    Rick Torres, Dojo Cho
    Integrity Defensive Arts
    Victoria, Texas
    www.ksrjujitsu.com
    [/B]

  2. #17
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    When techniques are taught they should be open for examination and possible alternative application. This should occur only after the student has grasped the basic concept/technique application in accordance with their Ryu/School/training group,etc curriculum.
    There are many ways to swing a stick, throw a punch/kich or apply a lock, but in the end what matters is wether it will impact the target effectively.
    And sometimes there's a progression, from hard to soft, linear to curved. First it's good to learn one way, perhaps the more linear, less subtle way, after which one may progress to the next way. Consider a hard block vs. a parry. In my experience, learning correct hard block form, with hip rotation and a solid root precedes being able to parry and use more dynamic footwork.

    One of my kendo sensei put it this way (what his teacher had told him):

    "Don't cut with your arms, cut with your legs.
    Don't cut with your legs, cut with your center."
    Michael Hobson

    Mukyudoka

  3. #18
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    Default Sensei-Deshi relationship

    I agree with others' posting that whichever group/sensei promoted your upsetting student should be contacted; and that it can help a student to understand why "your way" is correct if it's explained to him/her. But my experience is some teachers speak, others just do and some demonstrate or do all three. It's the student's "job" to figure out if he/she's
    following the teacher correctly and the teacher's job
    to check if the student has got the right idea. Isn't
    there a saying: the first 10 years, follow one teacher
    and don't criticize or wonder if what (s)he's teaching is right; the next 10 years, a student can begin looking at others' styles; the next 10 years the student may choose which ways are best for him/her?

    But anyway, "budo" is first and finally, about respect for the teacher, and for other practitioners. If a student doesn't feel that way and the teacher has tried his/her best, then the so-called student should be asked to learn somewhere else. Another saying from an Aikido teacher was: "To teach is to learn."
    I'm sorry you had that sad experience but as another poster said, you have learned from it and that's a happy thing. Pam, Kendo (etc.)

  4. #19
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    i agree with everyone else. he is plainly being disrespectful and it is time he was shown the door. i would sit him down and tell him "what you did was disrespectful, arrogant, and will not be tolerated. you can either leave the easy way or i can throw you out the hard way. your choice." and end it there.
    Ron Freeman
    8th Kyu Shukokai Karate

  5. #20
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    Hi all,
    I just wanted to tell. This person has left my clup.

    Soon after his graduation He send an e-mail to all important persons in my clup bad motuhing my skils in martial arts and my knowledge of teatching them. After this I made very clear to all that he canīt stay.

    Now he is starting his own clup in same space where I teach...

    Jeah. I know what you think...

    well after all I learned something. Be careful

    Mike White

  6. #21
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    Mike:

    I would suggest you speak to the owners of the space that you rent from and explain what has happened. They might decide that it is not a good idea to have that person teach in the same location.

    This person's history should be open for all to see. People will decide whom to train with, based upon what they experience and what the history is.

    GOOD LUCK!

    Marc Abrams
    Dr. Marc Abrams
    www.aasbk.com

  7. #22
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    Several B-movie Kung Fu flicks have this same plot.

    Please skip the part about your two sets of students having a kumite.


    Actually, this is also why have so many sects of religions, such as Christianity. Some guy starts to think more of himself than necessary, and starts his own thing.
    Terry Miller

  8. #23
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    Well I think we have to find out whos kung fu is best in this town... so kumite it is

    Just kidding

    Mike

  9. #24
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    I take a slightly different view with regard this situation. Let me explain.

    First of all it appears to me that you are a kyu grade and train under the guidence of a dan grade. If this is the case then surely the person who issued his rank and all those who train under you their ranks and you your rank. If this is not the case then I am sorry for the assumption. But if this is the case then the grade he was issued, regardless of any misstruths he may have anounced, has been granted under the same curriculum and observing eye as your own and shows his level of attainment. Therefore represesnts his level of ability in relation to your own.

    The whole attitude of "this is how we do it here because thats how i teach it" is very closed. If a movement is demonstrated and somebody can ask the question "why" you should be able to answer this with a "because". The problem occures when the questioner can come back with a "what if?" that is the point where a movement requires further investigation. So to answer the initial "why" with a techncal, historical, spiritual or what-have-you type of "because" should be enough to demonstrate your knowledge and understanding of the practices you are instructing. If you can't answer like this, then rather than take the "just because" approach of, this is the way I teach it, loses the opportunity for investigation and personal developed understanding.

    Now, for him to gain a grade and anounce it by email shows a person with very little faith in their actions. However, in my eyes grade is nothing more than a communication between student and teacher and goes no further. So in effect, his grade was recieved from another instructor and is only applicable to that relationship. Therefore it tells a larger story about the instructor who issued it and the student who recieved it.

    For him to send a further email to other people bad mouthing you and your approach shows very poor aiki and tells more about the specific charater. I am sure that all who recieved the email took it for what it was worth, deleted it and still train with you. So no harm done.

    If he does set up a class there, then how is he being insured? Surely he didn't gain a dan rank, get it registered, get a teaching license and sort all that out over night? If he is a kyu grade, then he shouldn't really be teaching a class without a registered instructor being present.

    Well if you are both registered as instructors and fully insured to be teaching classes then perhaps you should go with one of your students and train under his supervision to show him the correct approach, or not depending on your personal ethos.

    Personally I would have had a quiet word with him to first of all to congratulate him on his good performace during his grading and how sorry you are that you were not there to acknowledge it; secondly to let him know that this does not hold true during your class and until such time that you feel that he is worth that rank it is worthless in your eyes, let him know how offended you have been by his actions and why you felt that he should not be able to grade. I would then explain to him your dojo ettiquete and that if he can no longer adhere to this then he will no longer be welcome.

    Anyway, it is good that you can see this in a positive light and have not lost anything of significance from it.

    Good luck with the future.

    Yours


    Lawrence Fisher.

  10. #25
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    Hi all,

    It has been while. I have beeing busy practising. Iīm nidan, and this my former student was 2 kyu.

    He has now his own clup. They have couple class in a veek in same space where my clup has been practising 16 years. Monday they end their class and I start my own. After they leave their class this my former student shake hands and small talk with all my students.

    For time to time I hear how he has tryied to get my students to go practising in their clup

    couple days a go. I read from paper story of their clup. This my former student was telling how important in martialarts is to do exactly what teacher tells

    Mike

  11. #26
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    Default student/teacher etiquette

    Mike,
    First of all there is no need for you to apologize for your english. I am assuming that you are Japanese. There are so many more Japanese people, especially Martial Artists who try to adapt to the English than there are Americans who try to adapt to the Japanese. For the last 17 years I have studied in a very, very, classical Gojuyru school with a very traditional American Sensei. I have struggled time and time again with etiquette and trying to understand the way my study must be approached in order to better understand the cultural context of the style that I study. We have from time to time had the kinds of students come to our school to train like the one you are describing. Many years ago, Sensei used to get excited too when he would see a student with so much potential who was seemingly so eager to learn. Every single time, the student wanted more, more, more, his own way, doing whatever he thought he wantedto do to way in advance of where he was suppose for the process of his learning. It was a struggle sometimes. What my Sensei did was just to follow the old tradition. It takes time to get to know the character of the individual you are training. As an insturctor you have the right to decide not to teach a particular student if they begin, at any time, to show that they are disrespectful to the art or to you. After all if you teach a student long enough, he or she will have tools that are possibly deadly. That is a very big responsibility that you have. You have the right and the responsibility to expect a student to do what you teach, when you teach it, and how you teach it or go find a school that will allow him to acquire information without any real learning. Actually, that is what he is denying himself by his behavior.
    Maybe you need to talk with some other instructors who are masters and can help you to be stronger in this area until you can establish better habits for dealing with these kinds of students.
    Do you have a group of instructors who

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by C. Carstensen View Post
    ...I am assuming that you are Japanese. ...
    Yeah, Miika Kolehmainen is such a Japanese-sounding name.

    Actually, there is an ancient linguistic link between Finish and Japanese, both having Ural-Altaic roots.

    But I'm way off topic.



    Quote Originally Posted by small-mike View Post
    ...couple days a go. I read from paper story of their clup. This my former student was telling how important in martialarts is to do exactly what teacher tells
    Mike, it sounds like you did your best with this student, but some people can never accept that they are in a lower position than someone else.

    He wouldn't let you be the teacher, but now he wants others to treat him like a teacher.

    Maybe some day he'll be on E-Budo.com asking us for help with his own problem student, and we'll all just say, "Remember when..."

    Good luck with your club, and with the students you still have; I think you're better off without that other one.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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