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Thread: Jun Zuki Question

  1. #1
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    Default Jun Zuki Question

    Would you describe Jun Zuki as being similar to a "jab" as seen in boxing? I ask because of this description. It seems to me that a typical "boxing jab" is a very light and quicker motion and thus more similar to meuchi.
    Raul Rodriguez
    Shorinji Kempo New York City Branch

    http://www.ShorinjiKempoNYC.org

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    Default Jab?!

    Gassho!

    For anyone who wonders, here is the description:
    Jun duki, or a jab in boxing, is used to activate sequence of techniques because it can be delivered without big movement of the body.
    I disagree with that. IMHO, Jun zuki is a full punch in its own right delivered with quite a big body movement. Aosaka-sensei said something similar, IIRC, maybe someone has that article handy?
    I also wouldn't say that a jab (a short, multi-purpose boxing punch) is that much like a Me uchi either: Me uchi is supposed to be a quick, incapacitating punch causing minimal damage. If it's blocked I don't think it has much effect at all, whereas a jab can be used to wear an opponent down over time (prolonged fights are neither likely nor quite recommended for self-defense, anyway).
    In conclusion I'd say that the very different backgrounds of Boxing and Shorinjikempo lead to their techniques being very different, too: different tasks, different tools.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Gassho!
    I disagree with that. IMHO, Jun zuki is a full punch in its own right delivered with quite a big body movement. Aosaka-sensei said something similar, IIRC, maybe someone has that article handy?
    The article is on the WSKO website.
    We, (Brixton dojo), were always taught to punch with combinations; jun to jodan, gyaka to chudan. This supports the view of jun zuki as a jab, as opposed to a knockout blow, since in the latter case there would be no need for a second punch.
    I don't doubt that Aosaka Sensei can knock some-one down with jun zuki; this doesn't necessarily mean that any-one can do the same. Depends on speed, power, accuracy, body weight (of puncher and punchee), and intention.

    At yudansha level it may be useful to buy some light-weight gloves or padded mitts and to do some semi-contact randoori.
    Make sure that you have proper supervision, and that both you and your instructor are insured.
    Knowing how it feels to get hit in the head is one of the most useful lessons that you can learn when practicing a martial art.


    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    In conclusion I'd say that the very different backgrounds of Boxing and Shorinjikempo lead to their techniques being very different, too: different tasks, different tools.
    I believe that Kaiso was interested in boxing, although, to get an accurate assessment you would need to talk to some-one who knew him.
    But the "task" of a punch is straightforward; to knock some-one down, or to knock them out.
    Indar Picton-Howell
    印打
    Abujavol

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    I don't think that it is just one thing. It can be light and with the purpose of shocking, or alternatively it can be more, such as with kaishin zuki, or anything in between.
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

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    Default

    I agree with David, Jun Zuki is a multi purpose punch, depending on circumstance and intent. It can be a jab, it can be a faint or it can be given with devastating force.

    In the Kenseikai description, it states 'there are many variations for Jun duki'. I suspect that this refers to more than variations in footwork.
    Robert Gassin
    Melbourne ShorinjiKempo Branch
    Australia

    "Never fight an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and then beat you with experience"

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    Gassho,
    This is purely opinion but I would describe meuchi as performing one of the functions of a boxing jab. That of distracting or disturbing an opponent to allow a heavier follow-up. As a self-defence tool me-uchi is far superior to a light jab.
    I don't think of Jun Zuki as a boxing style jab since, as has been said before, the boxers jab is usually a light blow designed to score points over a protracted round. Except in randori this is not the purpose of Shorinji Kempo techniques. In boxing many matches are won with non-damaging but high scoring deliveries of jabs by a fast retreating fighter against a slow heavy hitter who can't quite find the target.
    Incidently regarding the use of a heavier jun-zuki like jab you might find this link to a book by Jack Dempsey interesting since he advocates a damaging jab and criticises the overuse of a light jab. There is much in this book that corresponds to Good Shorinji Kempo technique. Hope you find it interesting.
    http://www.freecirclefighting.com/jdbook.pdf
    Regards
    Paul
    Kesshu

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    I don't think that it is just one thing. It can be light and with the purpose of shocking, or alternatively it can be more, such as with kaishin zuki, or anything in between.
    as usual with Dave, (who I know well), this is 100% accurate.
    it's also completely useless information; "it depends"..........

    The way to learn to do jun zuki is to hit something, or some-one.
    We have done it it the hard way at Brixton dojo, but turning up for work with a black eye did not enhance my career prospects. And concussion is not something that I want to experience on a regular basis.

    Try using focus mitts. One person holds the mitt close to his/her head, the other person hits it. The hitter should be able to break the hittees balance.
    Indar Picton-Howell
    印打
    Abujavol

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    Jun Zuki is one of my favourite strikes. I still practice it a lot, but not as a light jab. I use it as an explosive short range attack, launched almost with a body spasm. If executed in that manner it can be devastating. If not a knockout blow, it will certainly break noses and remove teeth.

    Dirk

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    Default Short range?

    Gassho!

    You use Jun zuki for short range? I suppose our definitions differ, do You mean short as opposed to, say, a kick? Because as far as hand techniques go there is, IMHO, hardly anything with a longer range than Jun zuki.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Jan Lipsius
    少林寺拳法
    Shorinjikempo
    Humboldt University Berlin Branch

    "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere View Post
    If not a knockout blow, it will certainly break noses and remove teeth.

    Dirk
    no doubt true, but perhaps not strictly relevant from a SK viewpoint.

    Firstly, if you are fighting some-one serious, you won't stop them by breaking their nose or knocking out their teeth.
    Rendering some-one unconscious usually ends the conflict.

    Secondly, SK ethics tells us not to inflict unecessary damage.

    Thirdly, five points of atemi; I am sure that Dirk is sufficently powerful to inflict this kind of damage, but the whole point of ShorinjiKempo is that it works for anyone, not only large males.
    Speaking as a relatively large male, it's important to remember this when teaching.

    And lastly; this is a public forum. Shorinji Kenshi are not thugs.
    Indar Picton-Howell
    印打
    Abujavol

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    Quote Originally Posted by JL. View Post
    Gassho!

    You use Jun zuki for short range? I suppose our definitions differ, do You mean short as opposed to, say, a kick? Because as far as hand techniques go there is, IMHO, hardly anything with a longer range than Jun zuki.

    Kesshu,
    ______ Jan.
    Sorry - shortest distance to target.

    Dirk

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    Question From a practical point of view

    Dear all

    Gassho

    I assume the original question is only talking about a jodan strikes?

    Quote Originally Posted by paul browne View Post
    As a self-defence tool me-uchi is far superior to a light jab.
    I agree with Sensei Paul on this, that where possible, me-uchi is a better for self-defense. I believe Me-uchi should still have a significant impact with minimal bruising to your aggressor and therefore less likely to result in you getting into trouble with the police. Though this would entirely depend on the nature of the attack (if they had a weapon?) and what reasonable force would be required.

    Quote Originally Posted by Indar View Post
    if you are fighting some-one serious, you won't stop them by breaking their nose or knocking out their teeth. Rendering some-one unconscious usually ends the conflict.
    IMHO, it's not about rendering someone unconscious or breaking noses, it's about escaping. If a quick me-uchi or jun zuki gives me a split second to get on my pins and run to avoid further conflict, I'll take that. I personally believe it depends on the situation on how or if you use your jun zuki, so long as your accurate and faster than the other guy to create an escape - speed is the key for me.

    Domo Arigato
    Mike Smith
    _____________

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_Smith View Post
    IMHO, it's not about rendering someone unconscious or breaking noses, it's about escaping. If a quick me-uchi or jun zuki gives me a split second to get on my pins and run to avoid further conflict, I'll take that.
    But on the other hand, if your back's to the wall and you can spark out the gobby one with a good jun zuki, his two mates might think twice before wading in as well It's good to have all the options covered.
    Steve Malton
    Shorinji Kempo
    Oxford Dojo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indar View Post
    Thirdly, five points of atemi; I am sure that Dirk is sufficently powerful to inflict this kind of damage, but the whole point of ShorinjiKempo is that it works for anyone, not only large males.
    As you point out, when teaching we teach what works for everyone.
    However, an individual kenshi should not ignore their strengths, whether this is literal or metaphorical.

    Dirk

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    Steve

    Gassho

    Fair point, see how your thinking thought I had that covered with "would entirely depend on the nature of the attack" ...D'oh! However, although sparking someone out could be effective, the fall could kill them -
    http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nort...5578-20354304/
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...ds/4139666.stm

    In terms of deterrents to others, I think a swift kinteki says "I don't play fair, [insert word] off!" and does a fair job ....but that drifts from the jun zuki subject.

    Good training with you at the UTS this weekend

    Domo Arigato
    Mike Smith
    _____________

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