Jun Zuki Question

[paul browne]

Gassho,
This is just my observation
The vertical fist position, as used in Shorinji Kempo, is anatomically the strongest wrist position to punch from. It is the method used in most police/military unarmed combat forms and was the method used for straight punching in the days of bare-knuckle pugilism, only changing when gloves were introduced (though even then early boxing manuals often show a vertical fist).

There is a trend to use a qaurter turn of the fist for jodan zuki, but if you look at photo's of Doshin So performing Jodan Choku Zuki his fist is always completely vertical. One thing I've seen kenshi do for jodan zuki is flex the wrist so that it lies in a straight plain between the daikentos and the forearm, presumably to create a straight line between them. However this significantly weakens the structure of the wrist. I've found when hitting the heavy bag that my wrist only 'fails' if I rotate the fist to this qaurter turn, so I don't do it any more unless I'm trying to punch round something (for example over the defenders arm) and I never use this flexion. In the photos of Doshin So his fist lies in its natural plain, exactly as your hand lies if it is open only with the fingers closed. Interestingly this corresponds exactly to the advice given in the Jack Dempsey book I linked to earlier.
Incidently, I think it best when hitting the heavy bag to moderate the first few blows (each time you use it) before building to full powerto ensure you have the structure and distance correctly gauged. I know you can't do this in combat but it avoids an unneccesary injury.
Regards
Paul
Kesshu

[Rob Gassin]

One thing I've seen kenshi do for jodan zuki is flex the wrist so that it lies in a straight plain between the daikentos and the forearm, presumably to create a straight line between them.

Hi Paul,

If I understand you correctly, you are describe medial deviation of the wrist, that is, in the case of a vertical fist, the little finger side rotating downwards.

I have noticed that many Japanese kenshi use this action. The action is whiplike, at the instant of impact. From a biomechanical viewpoint, this activates the triceps and thus gives a similar effect to rotating the wrist horizontally. My understanding is that the whiplike medial wrist deviation amplifies the power and percussive effect of the punch. I have been working on this actionsince returning from Japan in September and am very pleased with it. I do not agree that it increases the risk of bending the wrist on impact.

Cheers,

[dirk.bruere]

Hi Paul,

If I understand you correctly, you are describe medial deviation of the wrist, that is, in the case of a vertical fist, the little finger side rotating downwards.

I have noticed that many Japanese kenshi use this action. The action is whiplike, at the instant of impact. From a biomechanical viewpoint, this activates the triceps and thus gives a similar effect to rotating the wrist horizontally. My understanding is that the whiplike medial wrist deviation amplifies the power and percussive effect of the punch. I have been working on this actionsince returning from Japan in September and am very pleased with it. I do not agree that it increases the risk of bending the wrist on impact.

Cheers,

I normally turn the fist through a quarter as well as make sure the top two knuckles are inline with the forearm (little finger pulled in a bit). When punching a bag I do it to make contact predominantly with the top two knuckles and not split the skin between third and little finger (which tends to happen if I spread the force centrally over the fist). I don't have particularly strong wrists, but I have never experienced the wrist bending at all.

Dirk

[paul browne]

Gassho,
Hi Rob/Dirk,

That is more or less what I'm describing, though it wasn't performed as a whip like like motion but a simple re-positioning and a qaurter rotation of the fist (ie, in migi the the thumb moves from 12 o-clock to 2 o-clock).
It is quite common in classes I train in and has been since I started, but I find I can punch harder and more confidently if I don't do it.
I do use a similar 'acceleration' of the limb in shuto/ soto wanto giri, Kumade zuki and most uke waza, flexing the wrist back and up towards the thumb side (I need a book for the proper terms ....I'm not the doctor). However these are less 'range sensitive' than choku zuki. I'd be concerned against a moving target with having to perform an additional action in my punch during striking, with the other strikes if the opponent is closer than I expected it makes no difference to the strike and doesn't risk injuring me.
Interestingly the action you're describing Rob is the opposite of that described in the book 'Shorinji Kempo' (or What is Shorinji Kempo?').When I get home I'll post the brief paragragh on forming seiken. (Unless of course qouting from it is forbidden)


Kesshu
Paul

Oh...and disagree...... with ME!!!.........are you not aware of my all encompassing wisdom?.....are you unable to bath in my radiance down there in your antipodian home?

[dirk.bruere]

Just one thing I'd like to add - "Bags don't hit back"!
Nor do they move about unpredictably.
A full power strike with knuckles in the perfect position landing on the enemy's forehead will leave him with a lump and the hitter with several months of pain and possible disability.
Hence the other post recommending open hand technique.

Dirk

[paul browne]

Gassho,
As threatened the passage on seiken from 'What is Shorinji Kempo?'

" The initial step in the mastery of thrusting techniques is the formation of the fist.Though Shorinji Kempo does not demand special hand training, the correct formation of the fist is absolutely necessary in developing an effective and powerful thrust."
The numbers relate to photographs of the process
1. Keeping all fingers except the thumb together, extend them.
2-4. Roll the fingers inwardtightly and firly.
5. Press the thumb tightly over and into the middle finger.
6. Incline the fist slightly upward (here's where it differs from Rob's method). The purpose of this upward inclination is to make possible thrusts at slightly upward angles. Contact with the opponent's body is made with the knuckles of the forefinger and middle finger, and the fist is twisted slightly inward on contact."
Whilst it refers to hitting the body, later illustrations show the same formation to jodan.

All of which is irrelevant since if you've found a way you like and it works, it's right

Regards
Paul
Kesshu

[Indar]

The vertical fist position, as used in Shorinji Kempo, is anatomically the strongest wrist position to punch from.

This is something that we can all determine for ourselves.
When practising tenchi ken, (which, of course, we all do daily), do jun zuki slowly.
You should be able to feel the angle at which the punch is strongest.
In my own case, this is about 45 degrees, i.e. fist is midway between vertical and horizontal.

POBSABIC ; train according to your own condition, but also shu, ha, ri

Also, try extending the punch (slowly) against a solid resistance (i.e. a brick wall), and again feel the position at which your body is transferring the maximum force from you to the object.

Also, look at the arm position used by ShorinjiKempo masters. You will observe subtle use of angle, both in goho and juho techniques.

[Indar]

All of which is irrelevant since if you've found a way you like and it works, it's right

depends if you are shu, or ha.
anyone here ri ?

[paul browne]

Gassho,
I forgot to add that both my current sensei and Mizuno sensei pauch in the way described by Dirk. So maybe it's just me.

I'm not right.
So maybe I'm wrong.

Paul

[dirk.bruere]

depends if you are shu, or ha.
anyone here ri ?

Yes, which is why I don't actively practice SK any more.

Dirk

[Ade]

Gassho

"Shu Ha Ri is a term the Japanese use to describe the overall progression of martial arts training, as well as the lifelong relationship the student will enjoy with his or her instructor.

Shu can either mean "to protect" or "to obey." The dual meaning of the term is aptly descriptive of the relationship between a martial arts student and teacher in the student's early stages, which can be likened to the relationship of a parent and child. The student should absorb all the teacher imparts, be eager to learn and willing to accept all correction and constructive criticism. The teacher must guard the student in the sense of watching out for his or her interests and nurturing and encouraging his or her progress, much as a parent guards a child through its growing years. Shu stresses basics in an uncompromising fashion so the student has a solid foundation for future learning, and all students perform techniques in identical fashion, even though their personalities, body structure, age, and abilities all differ.

Ha is another term with an appropriate double meaning: "to break free" or "to frustrate." Sometime after the student reaches black belt level, he or she will begin to break free in two ways. In terms of technique, the student will break free of the fundamentals and begin to apply the principles acquired from the practice of basics in new, freer, and more imaginative ways. The student's individuality will begin to emerge in the way he or she performs techniques. At a deeper level, he or she will also break free of the rigid instruction of the teacher and begin to question and discover more through personal experience. This can be a time of frustration for the teacher, as the student's journey of discovery leads to countless questions beginning with "Why...". At the Ha stage, the relationship between student and teacher is similar to that of a parent and an adult child; the teacher is a master of the art and the student may now be an instructor to the others.

Ri is the stage at which the student, now a high ranking black belt, separates from the instructor, having absorbed all that he or she can learn from them. This is not to say that the student and teacher are no longer associated. Actually, quite the opposite should be true; they should now have a stronger bond than ever before, much as a grandparent does with their son or daughter who is now also a parent. Although the student is now fully independent, he treasures the wisdom and patient counsel of the teacher and there is a richness to their relationship that comes through their shared experiences. But the student is now learning and progressing more through self-discovery than by instruction and can give outlet to his or her own creative impulses. The student's techniques will bear the imprint of his or her own personality and character. Ri, too, has a dual meaning, the second part of which is "to set free" As much as the student now seeks independence from the teacher, the instructor likewise must set the student free.

Shu Ha Ri is not a linear progression. It is more akin to concentric circles, so that there is Shu within Ha and both Shu and Ha within Ri. Thus, the fundamentals remain constant; only the application of them and the subtleties of their execution change as the student progresses and his or her own personality begins to flavour the techniques performed. Similarly, the student and teacher are always bound together by their close relationship and the knowledge, experience, culture, and tradition shared between them.

Ultimately, Shu Ha Ri should result in the student surpassing the master, both in knowledge and skill. This is the source of improvement for the art as a whole. If the student never surpasses his master, then the art will stagnate, at best. If the student never achieves the master's ability, the art will deteriorate. But, if the student can assimilate all that the master can impart and then progress to even higher levels of advancement, the art will continually improve and flourish.

From the book "Flashing Steel - Mastering Eishin Ryu Swordsmanship" by Masayuki Shimabukuro and Leonard J. Pellman"

So at the ri phase the student surpasses the master.

[David Dunn]

Yes, which is why I don't actively practice SK any more.

http://www.shinyokai.com/Essays_TeachingShuHaRi.htm

""Ri" is difficult to explain as it is not so much taught as it is arrived at. It is a state of execution that simply occurs after shu and ha have been internalized. It is the absorption of the kata to such an advanced level that the outer shell of the kata ceases to exist. Only the underlying truth of the kata remains. It is form without being conscious of form. It is intuitive expression of technique that is as efficient as the prearranged form but utterly spontaneous. Technique unbridled by the restriction of conscious thought processes result in an application of waza that is truly a moving meditation. For one who has achieved ri, observation becomes its own expression of reality. The mind is now free to operate on a distinctly higher level than previously possible. To the casual observer it appears that the exponent has become almost psychic, able to recognize an occurrence or threat before it actually exists. In truth the observer is just fooled by his own minds mental inertia. With ri, the lag time between observation and cognitive response is reduced to almost imperceptible levels. It is "ki". It is "mushin". It is "ju". It is all these things in combination. It is the manifestation of the highest level of martial ability. It is what we refer to in the Takamura ryuha as "wa".

The level of technical execution associated with ri is realistically beyond the ability of many practitioners. Most people are simply incapable of reaching this, the most advanced level of expression of a ryu's potential. "

[John Ryan]

Shu Ha Ri is not a linear progression. It is more akin to concentric circles, so that there is Shu within Ha and both Shu and Ha within Ri.

This is the most aesthetically-pleasing evocation of Shu-Ha-Ri I've heard - thank you for sharing this with us.

[dirk.bruere]

http://www.shinyokai.com/Essays_TeachingShuHaRi.htm

""Ri" is difficult to explain as it is not so much taught as it is arrived at. It is a state of execution that simply occurs after shu and ha have been internalized. It is the absorption of the kata to such an advanced level that the outer shell of the kata ceases to exist. Only the underlying truth of the kata remains. It is form without being conscious of form. It is intuitive expression of technique that is as efficient as the prearranged form but utterly spontaneous. Technique unbridled by the restriction of conscious thought processes result in an application of waza that is truly a moving meditation. For one who has achieved ri, observation becomes its own expression of reality. The mind is now free to operate on a distinctly higher level than previously possible. To the casual observer it appears that the exponent has become almost psychic, able to recognize an occurrence or threat before it actually exists. In truth the observer is just fooled by his own minds mental inertia. With ri, the lag time between observation and cognitive response is reduced to almost imperceptible levels. It is "ki". It is "mushin". It is "ju". It is all these things in combination. It is the manifestation of the highest level of martial ability. It is what we refer to in the Takamura ryuha as "wa".

The level of technical execution associated with ri is realistically beyond the ability of many practitioners. Most people are simply incapable of reaching this, the most advanced level of expression of a ryu's potential. "

SK is physical technique, and philosophy/religion.
For me 'Ri' has occurred with the latter.

Dirk

[Indar]

The level of technical execution associated with ri is realistically beyond the ability of many practitioners. Most people are simply incapable of reaching this, the most advanced level of expression of a ryu's potential. "

Not according to Mizuno Sensei.
I specifically asked him in one howa session whether everyone had the potential to achieve ri. His answer was yes.

Obviously I could have mis-interpreted what he said, so safer to check with him directly.