MJER & MSR lineage issues

[SamHaLe]

http://www.ekisuikan.com/newpage8.html

This interesting website claims that the 9th headmaster HAYASHI, Rokudayu Morimasa adopted the forms (the so called Omori-ryu) which his father HAYASHI Gozaemon invented as the beginner rank. HAYASHI, Gozaemon Masayoshi was master chief in Tosa. In later times, MATSUYOSHI and YAMAKAWA (MSR) made up a figure, OMORI Rokurozaemon.

They also state that during the time of the 14th headmaster (HAYASHI, Yadayu Masamoto), YAMAKAWA Hisazo stole the book of secrets of Iai and Ise school of etiquette from the HAYASHI family, thus he was excommunicated. He fabricated this book into the Shinden-ryu book of secrets. These can be said as one of the "4 biggest forged documents" in Japanese history. The 15th headmaster TANIMURA, Kamenojo Takakatsu expressed regret about the stolen book of secrets. In later times, he was made up as the origin of the Tanimura and Shimomura branch. MATSUYOSHI Sadasuke (MSR) dispatched YAMAKAWA as a spy to the HAYASHI family. NAKAYAMA Hakudo (MSR) attempted a take-over of Tosa Iai school and was expelled by Oe Masamichi (MJER).

WAKAURA, Jiro (was apprenticed to FUKUI), established the Ekisui-Kan and now is the Chairman of the Board, All Japan Iai and Jyujyutsu Federation. He uncovered how the Omori school distorted the history to fake its legitimacy. He also discovered that Iai forms have absorbed some features from the Ise school of etiquette.

If this man from http://www.ekisuikan.com/newpage8.html has good proof (old documents etc), this could means bad news for MSR and others.

Can anyone confirm this? Are there any other claims that are kept secret from westerners?

With kind regards,

[Chidokan]

Iwata sensei says the best swordsmen steal ideas from watching other iaidoka... Sounds like these guys took it just a little further is all...

I personally have never got to the bottom of what, if anything, went on with Nakayama Hakudo in Kochi dojo. There is certainly some form of ill feeling, which our sensei are loath to discuss, but this may be related to the fact that he taught 'outsiders'... in other words people who lived outside of a ten mile radius! I intend to ply alcohol around in March on my next trip to get some more inside information (I feel like a proper little Sherlock Holmes now!woohoo!)

[SamHaLe]

Iwata sensei says the best swordsmen steal ideas from watching other iaidoka... Sounds like these guys took it just a little further is all...

I personally have never got to the bottom of what, if anything, went on with Nakayama Hakudo in Kochi dojo. There is certainly some form of ill feeling, which our sensei are loath to discuss, but this may be related to the fact that he taught 'outsiders'... in other words people who lived outside of a ten mile radius! I intend to ply alcohol around in March on my next trip to get some more inside information (I feel like a proper little Sherlock Holmes now!woohoo!)

The "funniest" part is that OMORI Rokurozaemon and his Omori-ryu is made up by MATSUYOSHI and YAMAKAWA (MSR). Maybe you can grab a peace on that

greetings from Belgium,

[Shigeyasu]

Funny, I just noticed this dojo on a walkabout near my office here in Tokyo. I was kind of taken aback to see a poster for an iai dojo so near to where I work, and checked out the website. Their claims are certainly a bit startling, and I can't help but note the similarities to "The DaVinci Code" and other recent conspiracy-oriented stuff: forged documents, power struggles, historical persons "revealed" to be fabrications, people cast out of organizations, etc.

My Japanese is not very good; I can't read most of what's on their website, and I'm sure I wouldn't understand the book that they are selling for about $500.

I'd like to watch a practice and see what their techniques are like, but I'm not sure whether or not I can be bothered...

[bushikan]

I don't know if Nakayama Sensei intended to take over the the Tosa Iai (though it is certainly interesting). Nakayama Sensei was rejected several times from both branches of Hasegawa Eishin Ryu, because he was not originally from Shikoku. Hosokawa Yoshimasa only accepted Nakayama sensei on one condition: Never to demonstrate the iai publicly without a licence of full transmition (probally never expecting Nakayama sensei to achieve it). This promise was sealed via kepan. After this Nakayama Sensei was accepted as a student of Morimoto Tokumi (Tanamura ha). It is rumored that Hosokawa lost the majority of his students as a result of this decission. This may also be why Nakayama sensei (an outsider) was selected to inherit the school. It is unclear who Hosokawa passed Muraku Ryu to.

I also heard that Oe Masamichi did have several qualms with Nakayama Sensei, and delt with him reluctantly. Though I never heard of Oe issuing Kamon to Nakayama. And if Nakayama did recieve Kamon then I would believe that fact would have been more publisized. Though I guess its possible. Also Hosokawa accepted audiences with some of Nakayama sensei other students such as Danzaki Tomoaki and Nakayama Zendo, which probally would not have happened if Nakayama sensei was held with such a negitive regard.

That is very interesting about Omori Ryu. I guess it is plausable. I was not aware of the Shinden Ryu densho being fabricated. I was briefly given a glance at them a while back, I found them very interesting. Stolen or not the Shinden Ryu Densho outlived their predcessor (if what he claims is true) and proved move valuabe in that respect.

There are many rumors as to Nakayama Sensei rather shakey relationship with Oe sensei, most of them discribe an enormous tension between the two. Its interesting that such said feeling still exist today. Though if it was not for Nakayama Sensei many of us, many not be studding iai today.

anyway just some input, does anyone else have anyother info on this?

[Andrei Arefiev]

I don't know if Nakayama Sensei intended to take over the the Tosa Iai (though it is certainly interesting). Nakayama Sensei was rejected several times from both branches of Hasegawa Eishin Ryu, because he was not originally from Shikoku. Hosokawa Yoshimasa only accepted Nakayama sensei on one condition: Never to demonstrate the iai publicly without a licence of full transmition (probally never expecting Nakayama sensei to achieve it). This promise was sealed via kepan. After this Nakayama Sensei was accepted as a student of Morimoto Tokumi (Tanamura ha). It is rumored that Hosokawa lost the majority of his students as a result of this decission. This may also be why Nakayama sensei (an outsider) was selected to inherit the school. It is unclear who Hosokawa passed Muraku Ryu to.

There is a story in J.-P. Reniez's book on Chuden (in French) about Nakayama Hakudo's study of iai. I think I posted it in part quite a while ago. In short, he said that Hosokawa Yoshimasa didn't give the highest-level license to Nakayama Hakudo. It was a few years after his death that Morimoto Tokumi did it.

Regarding Hosokawa Yoshimasa, it might be interesting to check out this page: http://ww6.enjoy.ne.jp/~kanou-kan/muso/hstry/index.html It's a line that calls itself Muso Shinden Eishin-ryu and traces its lineage to him.

As for the story published on the Ekisuikan webpage, I'd be interested in seeing something else that would confirm it. Wakaura Jiro was in Moscow a couple of years ago, then two guys who took part in his Moscow seminar went to train with him in Japan (there is a report on the website as well). One of them returned with a 3rd dan (he didn't have any when he left). Unfortunately, I didn't learn about that seminar until it was over, but I have a video and could post a short extract of Wakaura Jiro demonstrating if there is enough interest.

[Chidokan]

Shigeyasu,
please make the effort...you never know, it could be a true Mcdojo which will give you a good laugh (and us!) or it may be legit....in which case it would be nice to find out where he got his information from.

Tokyo eh? time to send Dr. Watson (aka Eric Spinelli) on a mission!

[Shigeyasu]

Another interesting thing is that they claim to practice "Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Jujutsu" (which they also call Natsuhara Ryu Jujutsu). That would be interesting to see. In our club, we had always heard that there was an associated jujutsu school with MJER, but we always thought that it had been lost long, long ago.

Maybe I'll go check them out ... I'm really in no position to judge anything, though. I certainly know nothing about jujutsu!

[SamHaLe]

Funny, I just noticed this dojo on a walkabout near my office here in Tokyo. I was kind of taken aback to see a poster for an iai dojo so near to where I work, and checked out the website. Their claims are certainly a bit startling, and I can't help but note the similarities to "The DaVinci Code" and other recent conspiracy-oriented stuff: forged documents, power struggles, historical persons "revealed" to be fabrications, people cast out of organizations, etc.

My Japanese is not very good; I can't read most of what's on their website, and I'm sure I wouldn't understand the book that they are selling for about $500.

I'd like to watch a practice and see what their techniques are like, but I'm not sure whether or not I can be bothered...

Great you are working near by... A book for $500!? Maybe it comes with 3D glasses

[SamHaLe]

Another interesting thing is that they claim to practice "Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Jujutsu" (which they also call Natsuhara Ryu Jujutsu). That would be interesting to see. In our club, we had always heard that there was an associated jujutsu school with MJER, but we always thought that it had been lost long, long ago.

Maybe I'll go check them out ... I'm really in no position to judge anything, though. I certainly know nothing about jujutsu!

That is indeed very interesting. I wouldn't doubt to go and take a peek if I was working nearby.

[SamHaLe]

Shigeyasu,
please make the effort...you never know, it could be a true Mcdojo which will give you a good laugh (and us!) or it may be legit....in which case it would be nice to find out where he got his information from.

second that

[hyaku]

Another interesting thing is that they claim to practice "Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Jujutsu" (which they also call Natsuhara Ryu Jujutsu). That would be interesting to see. In our club, we had always heard that there was an associated jujutsu school with MJER, but we always thought that it had been lost long, long ago.

Maybe I'll go check them out ... I'm really in no position to judge anything, though. I certainly know nothing about jujutsu!

Is that related to Natsukashi Ryu? Hello Jeff hows things?