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Thread: Shield use in koryu

  1. #1
    jatslap Guest

    Default Shield use in koryu

    I've a question.

    Why did the Japanese swordsmen not use shields as was done by the Europeans? Was it because of the weapons used? Social outlooks? Warrior ethos? What?

    Now to some on this forum this may sound sort of silly, but I'm not a Kenjutsu student and this is an honest question.

    John Atslap

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    Lightbulb

    I was given to believe that Japanese warriors, perhaps not retainers of standing such as the Samurai, were known to use a small hand shield after the fashion of a European "Buckler". I have also seen references to light defenses of wicker which could provide modest shelter from archers but I must defer to folks who are better schooled in Japanese traditions. If it is of any help whatsoever, both Korean and Chinese traditions have included the use of wicker shields in their martial practice. Judging from the proportions I have seen sketched the wicker shield is approximately 24 inches or about 60 cm in diameter. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    Since most Japanese weapons were designed for two handed use, shields were not used at a personal level. Large wooden shields were used in siege warfare however and were wheeled out to protect musketeers and archers as they bombarded the castle. I have seen a woodblock print showing a mounted samurai firing a matchlock pistol while fending off another warrior with a buckler shaped like an old style shoulder guard from a early period yoroi. Thats the only instance of a personal shield I have come across.
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

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    This topic came up a little while ago. Here's the link.

    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...ghlight=shield

    Hope that helps.

    --Tim Kleinert
    --Timothy Kleinert

    Aikido & Qigongs

  5. #5
    rinpoche Guest

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    Here is a site that has a painting from the 14th century that shows the use of shields - basically big portable planks used to block arrows.

    Interestingly, the warfare being carried out seems to be primarily with bows. Seems to make sense.

    Click this

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    Dear John:

    ".....Interestingly, the warfare being carried out seems to be primarily with bows. Seems to make sense....."

    I noticed this too. I had been given to believe that the typical Japanese samurai seemed to consider the archer and to a lesser extent the spearman as somehow less valiant maybe even bordering on the cowardly because they never truely closed with their enemy. Still it seems there was an awful lot of these folks around on the battlefields. I am pretty sure the swordsmen probably thought similarly of the musketeers who turned up later in the 16th century.
    Can you hear it now?
    "Hey, you shot my buddy--- from a hundred yards off! Thats not fair!
    You better start fighting right or I'm taking my sword and going home!" :-)

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    I think you might be getting them mixed up with European nobles. The Japanese were horse archers in the Asian tradition. The sword and spear did not become their primary weapons till they started fighting the majority of their campaigns in areas unsuitable for horses, mainly in the heavily forested mountain areas away from the coastal plains [14th century onwards] Far from despising the bow, they revered it so much that in the 16th century they deliberately gave the ashigaru [footsoldier of non samurai lineage]the arquebus, thereby preserving [in most feudal armies] the bow as a samurai weapon. The warrior way in japan in early times was actually "The way of the horse and Bow".
    The Japanese were not afflicted by the Germanic distaste for projectile weapons. The celts preferred to fight on foot, hand to hand but did not eschew the bow [the welsh are the prime example]. The mounted "knight" stems from Charlemagne's Frankish nobles who came off second best to the steppe bowmen such as the Avars, Turkic/Hunnish tribesmen and later the Magyars. they adopted the horse to counter the enemy mobility but they really never got a grip on the steppe bow technology, besides they really wanted to get in close and take a head in single combat.
    To keep the story short [or me running of at the gob] the Japanese were not averse to bows. Many of their early heroes were bowmen. [Minamoto Tametomo for example]
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

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    This is my understanding too. The bow seems to have been the "revered weapon" of nobles long before the sword was - at least from what I have read.
    David F. Craik

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    Dear David and Jock:

    Thanks for helping me reframe that perspective. I followed your example and did some digging and there are, in truth, a number of legends about feats accomplished with the bow. Makes me wonder how the sword got such top billing! In Korea the martial culture had long been revered for its archery. Even in the modern world Korean archers are a force to be respected in Olympic competition. Still there seems to be a real effort to represent the sword as having more influence than it did. Strange.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    I think the sword became more prominent during the Edo period when few battles occurred anymore. Essentially battlefield weapons like the yumi and yari (also a revered weapon in more ancient times) became somewhat neglected, or relegated to use by women, as with the naginata.

    Naturally, carried day in, day out as much a badge of status as it was a weapon - the sword came to the fore, especially in an era when any fighting was usually in the form of single combat. Archery was still considered a noble pursuit, although not as pragmatic a one as it had been in days of yore.
    Last edited by Soulend; 7th November 2003 at 15:56.
    David F. Craik

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    fyi:
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

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    Thanks, John.

    Is there a time frame or era suggested for your post?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    Not sure about that. It is from a book I picked up in Japan. It is from a series of books called Strategy, Tactics, and Warefare. The subject of this volume seems to be castle constuction and seige warfare. Not a bad book for 1,900 yen...

    Here is another pic:
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

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    Looks like a nice book, John. Can you post specifics, maybe the publisher or ISBN?

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    ISBN4-05-601755-7

    Gakken
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

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