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Thread: Koryu intensive studies and mikkyo

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    Default Koryu intensive studies and mikkyo

    I know that studying koryu is a life long exercise.
    But then, since hardly any koryu is taught outside of Japan, one would have to live in Japan for many years. For most people this is not possible.
    However, I can imagine that people would be able to save up money for an extended stay of say six to twelve months. Now, if one does this it would of course be great to learn as much as possible in this time. But how often are koryu classes. It seems that most shihan have a regular job and teach two, three times a week. Or are there ryu which offer daily classes?
    Studying different arts at different days is a theoretical possibility, but I got the impression that most long time practitioners advise against this.
    Do you have any suggestions?
    Another question is about meditation, breathing and healing techniques. It seems that mikkyo is often part of koryu. In The Way of the Warrior we can see Otake sensei explain the kuji kiri and tell us that he uses it among other I guess to heal people. Is this regularly taught to students and still part of the curriculum? If not, why not? When is it taught? If only after living in Japan for many years, why is that so? Is it because the teacher has to be very sure of the student's character and can only be so after many years or does it take a lot of ground work? Otherwise if these practices are benefitial for health of oneself and others why aren't they passed on early on?
    Peer Schumann

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiaozi View Post
    But how often are koryu classes. It seems that most shihan have a regular job and teach two, three times a week. Or are there ryu which offer daily classes?
    It depends mainly on the mobility of the teacher. Where I practice classes are offered four times a week. Though we have a branch in Saitama taught by one of our shihan which is once a week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiaozi View Post
    Studying different arts at different days is a theoretical possibility, but I got the impression that most long time practitioners advise against this.
    Do you have any suggestions?
    It depends on how much you can handle. If your going to study another ryu it would be best to study a dicipline different from your first choice. So if you practice kenjutsu, you might want to practice a art which is dangerous to a swordsmen like: Naginata, Jo, So, or Bo. I would not recomend studding two of the same diciplines for the sake of preservation and personal understanding. Then again it all depends on you can you handel such a burdon, and also can you commit fully to them? Before you think to train in another style you should ask your instructor on their opinion and permission. Some styles may have restrictions on cross training. I believe that Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu trainees are not normally allowed to cross train unless it is a weapon they do not learn in the ryu itself (like Shinto Muso Ryu which offers training in many weapons not found in TSKSR).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiaozi View Post
    Another question is about meditation, breathing and healing techniques. It seems that mikkyo is often part of koryu. In The Way of the Warrior we can see Otake sensei explain the kuji kiri and tell us that he uses it among other I guess to heal people. Is this regularly taught to students and still part of the curriculum? If not, why not?
    Mikkyo is a tricky subject, I do not train in styles which contain such practices. As far as I know Mikkyo is apart of most Shinto and Estrotic Buddhist ryu-ha. Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and Taisha Ryu are styles which I have seen doing some sort of Mikkyo or Kuji as part of their practice. Taisha Ryu openly prays to Marishiten and Hachiman no Kami during their Iai (specifically the kata Enpi) and before their Iai kumitachi (very interesting stuff). There are many ryu which instruct the usage and practice of Mikkyo, however these are the only ryu-ha I have seen demostrate such diciplines publicly. Every Ryu has their own sort of austire, religious, or physical practices which one learns overtime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiaozi View Post
    if these practices are benefitial for health of oneself and others why aren't they passed on early on?
    Would you pass on something to someone who does not have the ability to comprehend it? No, and that is why. It is not something you would teach to an initiate who is still trying out the ryu. After a student recieves his license of initiation (Kirigami Literally: to cut paper) then they become an offical student of the style and are therefore allowed to learn the deeper teaching of the school. Simply when a teacher feels you are ready then you will learn them and thats really all there is to say about it. Its not up to us, tradition dictates action in koryu, and you must fit the standard to progress.

    There are other who can probally better explain this than me but, I hope this helps
    Jeffrey Karinja

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    Seems to me it's best to a) find a ryu b) practice the physical side long enough that you know that you can't rightly live without it c) find out if there are mikkyo practices d) If there are, join a temple and start practicing until you pack the fissures of your brain with sanskrit so that you have a general knowledge and understand of esoteric Buddhism. Any Vajrayana traditional practice would do e) Realize that your incessant practice of archaic martial techniques and alien rituals is warping your social relationships, scaring your kids and making your wife look longingly at a solid guy who fixes air conditioning units f) don't care - keep doing it more g/1) Maybe - just maybe - get initiated in the specific mikkyo associated with the ryu g/2) Maybe have your teacher decide he doesn't care to teach you that, or he's forgotten himself h/1) practice more h/2) Quit the ryu h/3) practice more and hope your teacher changes his mind h/4) look up your ryu's makimono on-line and try to figure out the rituals yourself i) notice that the air conditioning keeps breaking down and the repairman is at your house - a lot i) take your new sword and <blank> j) have a lot of time to practice mikkyo in your cell k) get released - with bragging rights that you are the first person in the history of your school to have killed an air conditioning truck l) visit kids on alternate weekends - they think you are weird because you keep threading your fingers in kuji throughout the visit m) test your traditional jujutsu on a BJJ blue belt and lose n) put a mikkyo spell on the blue belt. He just looks at you o) Get thrown out of the temple for sneaking in at night and doing "Wrathful Practices' in hopes of summoning up demons to devour the Gracie family p) Become an itinerant priest, walking down the street in Duluth, with a begging bowl and staff. Be tracked by police after being seen practicing bo kata in parking lots after hours. q) Have your feelings hurt when you find out that the police have classified you as harmless r) Realize your life has taken a terribly wrong turn, borrow money from your parents, and return to that job at Bear Sterns, selling adjustable rate mortgages s) Practice mikkyo in the bathroom of Bear Sterns - whoops that was the wrong spell - shares have just dropped from a high of $196 to $2. t) Put a spell on the Fed - hey, this stuff is working! Government intervention, using tax payer money to bail out bad business practices. u) Get laid off anyway v) Start writing on martial arts discussion groups incessantly, using an avatar of a sanskrit character and the name "Marishiten w) Oh yeah, martial arts practice. You still do that occasionally - between posts x) Your son is a slacker - a combination of Ritalin, video games and a school system that anathemizes ordinary boy behavior has left him totally unmotivated to do anything (Boys Adrift by Leonard Sax). BUT - you can share something, because he is on-line playing Ruronin Kenshin and has gotten very interested in Mikkyo y) You introduce him to mikkyo. He loves you. You tell him there is no such thing as a 'sakabato.' He hates you. z) Sure you don't want to just do judo?

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    Is this from personal experience Ellis?

    I did judo in high school and college. I'd rather do koryu. Although my teacher hasn't taught us mikkyo yet (don't think he will either, he'd be the best to do it though). Oh well, at least I can club baby harp seals with the axe handle of a bokuto we use...
    Christopher Covington

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    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis Amdur View Post
    Seems to me it's best to a) find a ryu b) practice the physical side long enough that you know that you can't rightly live without it c) find out if there are mikkyo practices d) If there are, join a temple and start practicing until you pack the fissures of your brain with sanskrit so that you have a general knowledge and understand of esoteric Buddhism. Any Vajrayana traditional practice would do e) Realize that your incessant practice of archaic martial techniques and alien rituals is warping your social relationships, scaring your kids and making your wife look longingly at a solid guy who fixes air conditioning units f) don't care - keep doing it more g/1) Maybe - just maybe - get initiated in the specific mikkyo associated with the ryu g/2) Maybe have your teacher decide he doesn't care to teach you that, or he's forgotten himself h/1) practice more h/2) Quit the ryu h/3) practice more and hope your teacher changes his mind h/4) look up your ryu's makimono on-line and try to figure out the rituals yourself i) notice that the air conditioning keeps breaking down and the repairman is at your house - a lot i) take your new sword and <blank> j) have a lot of time to practice mikkyo in your cell k) get released - with bragging rights that you are the first person in the history of your school to have killed an air conditioning truck l) visit kids on alternate weekends - they think you are weird because you keep threading your fingers in kuji throughout the visit m) test your traditional jujutsu on a BJJ blue belt and lose n) put a mikkyo spell on the blue belt. He just looks at you o) Get thrown out of the temple for sneaking in at night and doing "Wrathful Practices' in hopes of summoning up demons to devour the Gracie family p) Become an itinerant priest, walking down the street in Duluth, with a begging bowl and staff. Be tracked by police after being seen practicing bo kata in parking lots after hours. q) Have your feelings hurt when you find out that the police have classified you as harmless r) Realize your life has taken a terribly wrong turn, borrow money from your parents, and return to that job at Bear Sterns, selling adjustable rate mortgages s) Practice mikkyo in the bathroom of Bear Sterns - whoops that was the wrong spell - shares have just dropped from a high of $196 to $2. t) Put a spell on the Fed - hey, this stuff is working! Government intervention, using tax payer money to bail out bad business practices. u) Get laid off anyway v) Start writing on martial arts discussion groups incessantly, using an avatar of a sanskrit character and the name "Marishiten w) Oh yeah, martial arts practice. You still do that occasionally - between posts x) Your son is a slacker - a combination of Ritalin, video games and a school system that anathemizes ordinary boy behavior has left him totally unmotivated to do anything (Boys Adrift by Leonard Sax). BUT - you can share something, because he is on-line playing Ruronin Kenshin and has gotten very interested in Mikkyo y) You introduce him to mikkyo. He loves you. You tell him there is no such thing as a 'sakabato.' He hates you. z) Sure you don't want to just do judo?
    Before proceeding to step d, 1) read Asvaghosa's 50 Verses on Guru Devotion. 2) Recognize that anuttara tantra is generally believed by scholars to be a Tibetan, not a Japanese thing. 3) Remember that dogs have fleas and unusual religions have scholars 4) If anyone suggests that you take the "life entrustment initiation" ask them whether or not HHDL -- who has more initiations than a porcupine has quills -- took that one and if not, why not 5) beware anyone using the words "pure," "authentic," "unstained," and "genuine."

    In addition to being a widely available martial art, Judo is both a floor wax and a dessert topping. The real yogis keep walking north from Duluth and don't stop until they get to the Iron Range. The truly extraordinary keep going all the way to Yellow Knife.

    Best,

    FL

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    Um, Duluth is in the Iron Range...
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, žonne he ęt guše gengan ženceš longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearaš. - The Beowulf Poet

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    LOL! Why do I get the sense Ellis is speaking from first and/or second hand experience?

    You could just forget the Mikkyo stuff and go study with Howard, Dan, or Akuzawa and learn the essential body skills and maybe even hold your own with a bjj blue belt after a few years, keep the family together and your day job.

    Regards,

    Brently

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Reyer View Post
    Um, Duluth is in the Iron Range...
    Toivo, is that you?

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    Ellis that was classic!

    I am reminded of that pressure point knockout instructor where the guy tries his knockout on the BJJ guy in front of the news camera, the BJJ guy says he isn't feeling anything, the knockout teachers tells her "it doesn't work on athletes."

    Are we sure mikkyo works on athletes??


    Quote Originally Posted by Brently Keen View Post
    You could just forget the Mikkyo stuff and go study with Howard, Dan, or Akuzawa and learn the essential body skills and maybe even hold your own with a bjj blue belt after a few years, keep the family together and your day job.

    Regards,

    Brently
    Or, you could do BJJ for that few years, learn their essential body skills, and instead of "holding your own" you could wipe the mat with that blue belt!!

    Fancy that!

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    Very good
    Jim Boone

    Flick Lives!

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    Or, you could do BJJ for that few years, learn their essential body skills, and instead of "holding your own" you could wipe the mat with that blue belt!!
    LOL! Been there, done that, Kit. I thought that was at least part of the point being made. I don't want to presume exactly what Ellis was really getting at, but that's why I thought he ended that piece with:
    z) Sure you don't want to just do judo?
    Still, for someone that is drawn to koryu because they've been led to believe that Mikkyo harbors some secret path to special powers to harm or to heal, I'd say there are skills to found amongst some koryu that really can make a difference and give one an advantage (yes, even in the BJJ/grappling/MMA arena). But I personally don't think it's necessary to learn secret hand signs, esoteric chants or mystical prayers to develop them. I do think it requires a teacher who has the goods and is willing to share them, and it also takes a real commitment to train thoroughly if you want to learn much from them. For most people though, a few years of bjj/judo or something similar would probably be plenty sufficient for what they're looking for - especially if their goal is to simply gain enough martial proficiency to actually be able to wipe the mat at all against an opponent with some reasonable level of skill.

    Respectfully,

    Brently Keen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brently Keen View Post
    Still, for someone that is drawn to koryu because they've been led to believe that Mikkyo harbors some secret path to special powers to harm or to heal,
    I'd just like to point out that the OP only mentioned Mikkyo in the context of "meditation, breathing, and healing", not in the sense of "dim mak". I know that when I saw the BBC special on TSKSR, I found the part regarding Mikkyo to be absolutely fascinating, and it definitely piqued my interest in learning koryu. And it had nothing to do with unlocking strange powers (I actually wonder if that old lady got better at all), but more with this body of knowledge and lore retained since olden times. Heck, I'm curious about TSKSR's gunbai/gunho, even though I'll never be in a position to lead medieval Japanese troops into battle.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, žonne he ęt guše gengan ženceš longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearaš. - The Beowulf Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Reyer View Post
    I'd just like to point out that the OP only mentioned Mikkyo in the context of "meditation, breathing, and healing", not in the sense of "dim mak". I know that when I saw the BBC special on TSKSR, I found the part regarding Mikkyo to be absolutely fascinating, and it definitely piqued my interest in learning koryu. And it had nothing to do with unlocking strange powers (I actually wonder if that old lady got better at all), but more with this body of knowledge and lore retained since olden times. Heck, I'm curious about TSKSR's gunbai/gunho, even though I'll never be in a position to lead medieval Japanese troops into battle.
    I thought it looked very cool as well. But I've always been skeptical of such things, but at the same time puzzled as to how they would have gotten developed into such a comprehensive system in the first place! I mean, scientifically, Juji wouldn't work, so how did they develop a system around it? The only logical explanation is that it DID work, and maybe the supernatural really can exist (or the placebo effect is very very effective). I too am extremely curious to see if the old lady got better. It would answer my question anyway =P
    -John Nguyen

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    C'mon guys, 100,000 Buddhas can't be wrong......

    Sing it with me:
    Let's pray like Yamabushi
    In tiny white fundoshi
    Under water that is icy
    It's good enough for me!
    Give me that OLD TIME RELIGION!

    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

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    The following quote from ‘Tantric Buddhism in East Asia,’ by Richard Karl Payne might be germane to this discussion:

    “The Three Sets of Vows

    One of the ways in which a distinct identity has been created for esoteric Buddhism is through the use of three sets of vows, or what are also called the three great codes of discipline. These are the pratimoksa vows, the bodhisattva vows, and an additional distinct set of mantrayana vows. Kukai, founder of the Japanese Vajrayana tradition of Shingon, presents the Mantrayana vows (Jpn. Samaya) as a set of four: not to abandon the correct Dharma or to develop any incorrect behavior, not to give up the aspiration to attain enlightenment, not to be tight –fisted about any of the teachings, and not to go without benefiting all sentient beings.

    These three sets of vows are found in both Tibetan tantric and Japanese tantric traditions. (It is unclear, to me at least, as to whether or not the three sets of vows are used in China.) This may serve as a criterion for identifying where an institutionalized form that identifies itself as Vajrayana Buddhism actually exist, rather than simply the use of those elements identified as typical of the tradition, such as mantra, mudra, dharani and mandala, within a broader Buddhist praxis.”

    (I removed the footnoting referents since I didn't post the footnotes. I added Bolding to highlight areas I thought pertinent to the present discussion.)

    FWIW
    Allen Beebe

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