kesa giri vs. downward vertical strike

[Jason Ginsberg]

Hi all,

I read that Toyama Ryu puts a lot of emphasis on kesa giri, indeed one of the founders mentions this as a conscious decision, feeling that this was an important strike that he felt was neglected. Kesa giri certainly seems to be emphasized more in their kata. The other day I saw on the website for Kashima Shin Ryu that kesa giri is considered the fundamental stroke there as well.

It seems like in other schools, such as Itto Ryu (and Kendo), the downward vertical strike (not sure if shomen uchi was the right term in this context) is the fundamental stroke. I was wondering what people felt the advantages and disadvantages of each were, and why one or the other would be primary. Also, I wondered if their might be historical or other outside reasons affecting the choice, for instance whether or not armor and helmets were used, or in the case of Toyama Ryu, if the popularity of tameshigiri had something to do with this, due to the targets used. Any thoughts?

thanks,
Jason

[Michael Mason]

I read that Toyama Ryu puts a lot of emphasis on kesa giri....whether or not armor and helmets were used...

An explanation I have heard is that reported failures in combat of the straight over head cut against steel helmets worn by Chinese soldiers in Manchuria (1930s) inspired the instructors at the Toyama academy to revise the curriculum and focus more on Kesa Giri (although some straight cuts are still part of later incarnations of the techniques as well).

[J. Mijares]

An explanation I have heard is that reported failures in combat of the straight over head cut against steel helmets worn by Chinese soldiers in Manchuria (1930s) inspired the instructors at the Toyama academy to revise the curriculum and focus more on Kesa Giri (although some straight cuts are still part of later incarnations of the techniques as well).

That's what Power Sensei has told me as well. Kesa-giri in Toyama had nothing to do with the angle used to cut makiwara.

The instructors at the Toyama Military Academy examined the battlefield dead and realized that the kesa-giri cut had a much better chance of doing more internal damage than a straight downward cut.

My sempai, Leung Sensei, describes it this way: If you use a straight downward cut on an unarmored opponent, your strike still might glance off the skull. And now you've got a very angry opponent to deal with. With kesa-giri, you're going for the base of neck. Imagine the "L" shape at the base of the neck. Leung Sensei calls it a "shot catcher". If you hit that part -- even if you're off by an inch or two -- the blade has no where else to go but deeper into your opponent. Once through the collarbone... Well, you get the picture...

In Nakamura Ryu Batto-Do, we had the straight downward cut in one of our basic Toyama forms, but then it was removed. (Not sure why. Then again, it's early on a Friday morning and I might be senile... )

-- Jay

[Fred27]

The instructors at the Toyama Military Academy examined the battlefield dead and realized that the kesa-giri cut had a much better chance of doing more internal damage than a straight downward cut.


-- Jay

I read somewhere that they also studied testimonies & reports from the Boshin war & Satsuma rebellion as the two conflicts was loaded with sword fighting.
Cant provide a source though.

[dsomers]

Within the Morinaga Ha tradition of Toyama Ryu we still use Makko Giri in many of our Kata, instead of Kesa. In the Hon Iai, which are the main 8 Kata, Kesa Giri isnt introduced to Sanbonme, within our tradition.

[Nii]

But weren't battles where the casualty's are from death by sword in the 20th century very rare?