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Thread: Ki (as in “The Force”)

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    Default Ki (as in “The Force”)

    Ki (as in “The Force”)

    It is relatively easy, so to speak, to explain how Aikido techniques work.
    And it is also easy I suppose, to explain the philosophy that lies behind those techniques.
    But even if someone would use his Ki power to walk through walls, people would still misunderstand what Ki is and how it works.
    On top of it all, you have active Aikido practitioners who still don’t get it, or when they do, they “confine” their Ki ability into their Dojo walls.
    Meaning:
    When you start controlling your Ki (which is the greatest start of all) you should improvise with it in your daily life and not keep it just for the “throw around people” routine.

    A Martial Art that makes no prime use of Ki within its techniques looks like controlled violence.
    A Martial Art (any Martial Art) that is based on Ki power looks like magic and I would like to explain why.
    As I often say, Ki power is invisible to the eye but its effect is unbelievable to the eye!
    People look at it and say “that just can’t be happening” or at least say so until they join in…
    Now imagine how it feels to the one applying it, or better don’t, because it is beyond words and imagination. So, let’s leave it at that.

    People who are interested in Ki power matters and everything that goes with it (and it’s a lot!) are often more confused and lost than the ones that aren’t interested in anything all together.
    So, what do we do now?

    If experience, ability and solid proof can’t make it, what else can?
    Maybe a fairytale can! So here you have it.

    A long time ago in a galaxy far,
    far away…

    I don’t know if we should thank George Lucas for his Star Wars or just go ahead and… sue him.
    His concept of the Jedi Knights order, the peace warriors code, the training and use of the Force, is soooooooo much Aikido like!
    The master-apprentice relation, the ability of insight, the light saber… ok that’s enough let’s sue this guy…
    Maybe this fantasy is closer to any reality, at least any reality that can be explained and stop being misunderstood.

    In this fantastic dialogue (that stands in the way just about every other day) after having explained for about two hours what Aikido is, comes the bomb question:
    -So, you are into Zen and Karate (at this point making gestures and funny noises) and you eat only Sushi?
    -No… (desperate) we are training ourselves into something that resembles more to the Jedi Knights.
    -Oh! Do you “have” Dark Sith Lords too? (wicked smile)
    -If you push it… you never know!

    So, by fairytale or not, what is Ki after all, and how can we approach it?

    …you must unlearn what you have learned…
    Life creates it, makes it grow
    Its energy surrounds us and binds us
    You must feel the Force around you
    Here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere
    Yoda

    (from the motion picture The Empire Strikes Back)
    Last edited by P Goldsbury; 3rd June 2008 at 09:13. Reason: Removed the commercial references, with poster's consent.
    Mario Gunter Frastas

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    Hello Mr Gunter,

    I removed this thread the first time it appeared because your post, posted on other web forums also, seemed to me to be a form of commercial advertising for your book.

    I will leave it here for one week and see the reaction.

    Best wishes,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    I think someone should have the right to talk about something they are passionate enough to write a book on.

    There are many Star Wars budo connections.

    Jedi is a twist on words of Jidai - meaning samurai films

    The garb of the Jedi is a close copy of many samurai clothing.

    Words such as Obi even crept into the characters names.

    Vaders helmet slope is based on the samurai design.

    Sword culture and dismissal of the firearm is a carry over as well.

    Qui Gon JIn's meditation in the midst of battle was a lovely display of Zen in the martial arts.



    Now on to the topic at hand. Ki and the Force


    I think a great many Aikidoka in the world see these as similar models. Personally I think it foolish and dangerous to approximate the two.

    Ki is movement. While it can be mystical, it is also very mundane. A push is an expression of ki. The weather is an expression of ki. Health is an expression of ki.


    While the Force might be similar to sci fi theology students, one can argue the movies represent the Force as MAGIC. There are some Aikido schools in the world, I believe, that follow this magic paradigm. These are the schools with ki powers, knocking over people from across the room. They have knock out moves with waves of their hands, and they focus on tricks as a testament to the magical properties of Ki. In reality the flawed model of KI as magic assists these dojos in promoting a hypnotism culture where technique draws ever away from reality and more in the world of eccentric human behavior.


    Just a thought. If you are unclear about what I am talking about I am including a link to a illusion magic site where we were discussing this phenomena in the martial arts. The attached videos on the link are really worth watching as a martial artist. Some of them are quite trippy.

    http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/v...24876&forum=14




    May the Force Be With You,


    Eric Pearson

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    Reminds me of people looking at the the Star Wars movies thu an post modern lens and trying to apply them as "hidden" contempory political statement.

    As one wag put it "I can't decide if Palpatine was Bush or Saddam...I think he was Bush...but maybe......."

    Sheesh.

    Has anyone read my thesis on how Buffy the Vampire Slayer is actually a reflection of the deeper codes of Bushido?
    If you notice many of the supporting cast have no special powers or skills, yet they risk their lives to protect their much better trained and powerful friend...a clear reflection of characters in many Samurai films of the good natured and well meaning honorable youth whom often dies as a plot device.

    Plus it serves as a vaulable moral lesson on people being able to do important things despite having no skills...good lesson for kids in that to never give up or fail to try just because your not a superhero.

    Sheesh AGAIN.

    You talk fast enough you can make almost anything "sound" plausable....and chances are.....you BS well enough..."somebody" is going to buy it.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

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    It's well known that Lucas' Star Wars is a retelling of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress. so of course there are similarities.

    so?
    Jim Boone

    Flick Lives!

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    yoj

    Its hard to to tell exactly where ideas come from, some years ago I read an interview with Kurosawa's/one of his good friends and he told a story of someone telling Kurosawa that he should sue Clint Eastwood for "stealing" his Yojimbo character...right down to the plotline, specific events and such visuals as the hiding his hands inside his poncho.

    Kurosawa repiled that he really couldn't sue Eastwood as he had "stolen"/gotten the idea from Dashell Hamment (sp)
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

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    I personally dislike threads like these because they discredit valid investigation into the classical body skills that "ki" and terms like it referred to. I think it's a complete sidetrack of the real strengths.

    But maybe that's a good thing...

    Best,
    Ron

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    Hello Ron,

    Yes. I would probably agree with you in general. However, E-Budo does not have a monopoly of discussions about 気 that teeter between the sublime and the ridiculous.

    The reason why I trashed the thread the first time was that it smacked too much of advertising for the poster's book. So we had a private correspondence, as a result of which I removed the references to the book in the first post.

    So the thread stands, for what it is worth... I myself am not expecting any major revelations, but this is because I am skeptical that Internet discussions lead to these.

    Best,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Default pardon the intrusion..

    Apologies to Prof Goldsbury and everybody else for butting in on your forum, but this is a topic I have devoted some thought to in the context of my own art (I'm a third dan in Shorinji Kempo)

    As an aside re the movies, I would have thought the Force (TM) has more of an affinity with Dharma than 'ki', given its cosmological significance, but who knows..

    I suspect 'ki' is a concept which loses a lot of nuance in translation, both linguistically and culturally. Shorinji Kempo as an art pretty much lacks any claims to esoteric or mystical elements, but I have senior SK sensei talk about 'ki' in terms which make it pretty clear that they are referring to something more than an extended metaphor.

    I suppose I can see some relationship with the conceptual underpinnings of weak points in the body, which in SK at least are pretty much identical with those presented in traditional oriental medicine (eg chi meridians and keimyaku hikio). As a Western rationalist I struggle to accomodate the concept of energy fields in the body (electromagnetic activity in the body can be measured and quantified, but nobody has yet come up with a 'ki' meter). Nevertheless as an applied body of knowledge this stuff works (NB I'm not talking about the 'look, no hands' mystical guff, but precise application of physical contact or understanding of physical dynamics).

    What does aikido practice suggest about 'ki'?

    Respectfully

    Tony Leith

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    Hi Tony,

    What does aikido practice suggest about 'ki'?
    Everything from the sublime to the rediculous

    But seriously, I don't think that it's so much what **aikido** suggests...but rather what most asian Martial Arts have used as a basic physical strength (based on specific ways of moving). More info on posts on aikiweb...look for Dan Hardin, Mike Sigman, Rob John, and some others if you are interested. There are in fact serrious conversations out there that have led people to get together and share some of what is known. I have personally found it usefull...but what do *I* know? Not much...

    Best,
    Ron

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Tisdale View Post
    ...I don't think that it's so much what **aikido** suggests...but rather what most asian Martial Arts have used as a basic physical strength (based on specific ways of moving).
    Ron, that's true, but if you look back at what's been available in English over the past fifty years on this subject, none of them go to the depth of information that's leaking out now. If you compare Tohei's "Aikido in Daily Life" with some of the current discussions, without knowing "who" Tohei is, you might say Tohei doesn't have a clue. I first got into it with Mike Sigman on this board because he told Rob John that I "didn't have a clue" when my comments were straight from a book by Liang Shou-Yu--whom Mike has called his "teacher".

    Just because deeper and greater detail "can" be discussed, that does not invalidate the discussions of universal energy that are also true.

    However, for depth of detail, I've recently been re-reading B.K. Frantzis' book, "The Power of Internal Martial Arts," which does make a lot more sense after the last couple of years reading the threads and people you've mentioned above.

    Best to you.

    David
    David Orange, Jr.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
    Lao Tzu

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    I only know Mike Sigman thu my interactions with him on this and other forums...and those interactions have been less than pleasant....which is probably as much my fault as his...but beyond that I am always skeptical of the notion that there are in effect hidden cabals of "masters" that have "secret" means of doing things that are kept from all but a handful of people......regardless of how many students they have had over the years...and regardless of just whom those students might have been.....how long they were with them.....blood relatives........etc.

    I've personally seen (and felt!!!!!!) people that could do amazing things...but beyond that of a high order talent backed by a life-time of exceptionally intensive training?....I'm not sure.

    Its actually my honest hope that somebody really will find an overlooked methodology that yeilds incredible results......just not holding my breath....except as far as my breathing exercises go.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

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    Default Concerning Mike Sigman

    Quote Originally Posted by cxt View Post
    I only know Mike Sigman thu my interactions with him on this and other forums...and those interactions have been less than pleasant....which is probably as much my fault as his...
    Who hasn't had some such interaction with Mike? I certainly have and I will take a certain amount of the blame for it. Mike isn't the only person I've had unpleasant interactions with on these boards, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by cxt View Post
    ...I am always skeptical of the notion that there are in effect hidden cabals of "masters" that have "secret" means of doing things that are kept from all but a handful of people......regardless of how many students they have had over the years...and regardless of just whom those students might have been.....how long they were with them.....blood relatives........etc.
    Well, there you bring up several levels of things of consideration. For one thing, it isn't always a matter of secrets being "kept from" people, but of their ability to absorb the knowledge and their tenacity at digging the secrets out and integrating them into their own skills.

    I recently found my copy of T.T. Liang's book, "Tai Chi Ch'uan for Health and Self-Defense." Liang describes the transmission of Yang family style tai chi. He says Yang Lu Cha'an learned tai chi from the Chen family in the Chen village and developed his Yang style from that. Yang was a powerful martial artist who took on all comers and became known as "Yang the unsurpassable," but he couldn't get his own sons to master the art to the highest level possible. He tried, but he made them miserable because they just didn't have the personal motivation in their lives to delve that deeply into the art. Also, Yang had learned the art as a part of his full life as a free man and he didn't allow his sons that same kind of freedom of personality with which he had mastered the art. And maybe because Yang forced his sons to train so hard, they developed something of a natural repulsion for tai chi. In any case, though both sons learned a lot, they did not reach the highest levels.

    When Yang Lu Cha'an died, his top student, Chen Hsiu Feng, stood at Yang's grave and said, "Yang's tai chi is no longer in the hands of his descendants." Meaning that the highest mastery of Yang's art was with him, and not with the family. Yang's sons were infuriated, but they knew that they couldn't beat Chen, so the practiced hard for three years, then went to face Chen.

    Chen was mild toward them and said, "I see you two have trained very hard since that time, so you may claim the title of head disciples of Yang. Here: sit in this chair and let it be the head disciple's chair." And so saying, he placed his flat palm on the seat of a heavy chair beside him and lifted it with his flat palm, moving it across to his other side and setting it on the floor.

    The Yang brothers were startled. They knew they had no such mastery of tai chi. Sticking is one of the eight powers of tai chi and Chen was able to lift a heavy chair with his flat palm. But his attitude saved them some face and they no longer felt a need to fight him. They did go back and train harder than ever in tai chi but Liang does not say that they developed the kind of powers Chen had gained.

    Still, this is an example of how even blood relatives may fail to grasp some very deep elements even of their own father's art. Needless to say, even very talented people who are not the sons of the founder could also fall short. But some very few could reach the very deepest level through some combination of personal capacity, direct transmission from a master AND extremely dedicated practice of the principles until those principles are one with their being.

    On the other hand, could even such a talented person learn these powers from someone who had never mastered them, himself?

    The sad fact is that most people teaching martial arts are not of the level of Chen Hsiu Feng and even with extreme dedication and sacrifice, no one can reach Chen's level of ability through training with such teachers. Most aikido teachers today never studied very closely with anyone who studied very closely with Ueshiba or his very close students. So there is bound to be something missing in their aikido and they will never be able to know or transmit the art on the level that Ueshiba knew it.

    Now, does Mike Sigman have the missing element of aikido?

    I'm not sure that he does. I do believe that he is very highly developed in tai chi, however, and that he is more powerful than most anyone you will ever meet in aikido, including most Japanese masters. But that does not mean he has the missing elements of aikido or that he really even understands aikido as an art.

    Mike has described a "test" to determine whether someone is qualified to teach internal powers: the would-be teacher should be able to place his hand on your chest and, with very little observable movement and no observable "effort," he should be able to knock you back several feet--almost power-at-touch, and tremendous power, at that.

    George Ledyard, who weighs around 300 pounds, says that Mike Sigman put his hand on him and, just as described, with very little observable movement and no apparent effort, "blew" George back several feet. He said he was sure that if Mike were to focus that kind of power (as Mike could doubtless do), Mike could kill him with that power.

    Quote Originally Posted by cxt View Post
    I've personally seen (and felt!!!!!!) people that could do amazing things...but beyond that of a high order talent backed by a life-time of exceptionally intensive training?....I'm not sure.
    The thing is, unless you are practicing exactly the right things, even exceptionally intensive training will not give those same results. It will doubtless develop great power, but not power of the kind and to the level that Mike and Dan Harden and Rob John describe.

    Mike goes into considerable detail on how this power is generated in the body and it is consistent with everything I've read about chi gung and tai chi. "Alignment of the body, relaxation of the muscles, clarity of the mind," etc., but there is also a lot more to it than that and it is developed to an extremely subtle state, fully integrated with one's life. When I re-read Frantzis' "Power of Internal Martial Arts," I recognized that it, too, was consistent with everything Mike has been saying. But none of that violates or invalidates the traditional descriptions of ki as universal power that moves through all living things, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by cxt View Post
    Its actually my honest hope that somebody really will find an overlooked methodology that yeilds incredible results......just not holding my breath....except as far as my breathing exercises go.
    I am convinced that there is no completely overlooked method, waiting to be discovered by "someone." The method is and always has been there. It has always been the same. It is described in various places and certain individuals throughout history have been able to demonstrate the results to be obtained by that method. The people who can and will dig that out are just very rare and usually quite eccentric.

    Best wishes.

    David
    David Orange, Jr.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
    Lao Tzu

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    David

    Then its best that you and I just agree to disagee.....I find that one of the things that is oft said when anyone disagree with such things is some version of "I know things you don't."

    "abilty of people to absob the knowledge"

    Good point, but if that is the case then we are right back to "not eveybody can do it" and honestly are not most skills kinda dependent on being able to "absorb" the lessons?

    IMO any skills that can't be taught to a mans own sons, with direct 24/7 contact to him and are at least 1/2 of his genetic make-up, as you mention in the Taji story, are not "skills" in the most common use of term...what they are would best IMO, be viewed as "abilties" which like having hazel eyes or blonde hair is something you either have or you don't.....it really can't be taught.....not in the usual meaning of the term.

    Maybe Mike can do these things maybe not........but what Mike can PERSONALLY do is of little practical value to me or anyone else if he can't reliably teach OTHER people to be able to do these things as well.
    Which again, maybe he can and maybe he can't........don't know, but I don't hear of too many people being able to toss a 300 lbs man around with no use of observable power.

    The keyword of course is "reliably."
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

    "Team Cynicism" MVP 2005-2006
    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

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    Hi Chris
    The Idea of whether or not Mike can teach it is long gone by. He has. So has Ark, So have I.I have had many students who can do these things. A couple of whom can move a large man around with no discernable power at all. I happen to train with some very large MMA guys who happen to be students of mine as well as go out a play. Mores the point is whether or not they can throw me. They regularly bounce off. A more readily usable alternate to that power to move someone is in striking. They are fight enders and give a whole new meaning to heaby hands. I'm not allowed to hit people any more-I break them.
    None of this is new, its just probably new to most MAers.
    FWIW Between MIke Ark and I we have had hundreds now come from all over to feel these things. No one has called it B.S. or even of marginal use. Everyone wants it and is willing to travel to train to get it.
    I don't like the term "mysterious power" or any such drivel. It is teachable and explainable in person. Further, to get people doing it just requires time-in. I keep hearing this or that teacher knows and does it. So far there is a growing contingent of men out there who felt us three, some tai chi guys and then a host of supposed Japanese master level Aiki teachers.
    More and more are left looking at these aiki big shots and saying "Where’s the beef?"
    It is important to know who has these skills to any real usable levels in one degree or another. It is more important to know who can teach it. I just think the idea of whether it is real or not is now -among the more informed- gone by.

    Dan
    Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training. Only amateurs think that techniques are enough. They understand nothing. Sagawa Yukiyoshi

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