Multiple attackers

[GCP]

I've noticed in Hakkoryu and Daitoryu there are specific kata for dealing with multiple attackers, for e.g. in Hakkoryu there is a kata whick starts with tori being seized by four people simultainiously.

Do these very specific types of kata occur in other jujutsu ryu? Is there really much value to these as they are so artificial as to appear theatrical.

[lucky1899]

I've noticed in Hakkoryu and Daitoryu there are specific kata for dealing with multiple attackers, for e.g. in Hakkoryu there is a kata whick starts with tori being seized by four people simultainiously.

Do these very specific types of kata occur in other jujutsu ryu? Is there really much value to these as they are so artificial as to appear theatrical.

In my experience I haven't seen other jujutsu ryu have multiple opponent kata. I don't believe the techniques are practical (or at least not until many, many, many years of training it) but it does force the defender (person throwing) to have better form. Get two, three or four people attacking and the defender's ability to use strength diminishes quickly.

When a student of mine has trouble with a technique, I often have two more uke attack, then I go back to only one uke. I have found it is a good training tool for such "blocks".

Regards,

Andrew De Luna
Daito Ryu

[Peaceful_Farmer]

Danzan Ryu has a few multi-opponent kata on the Goshin & Shinin boards (I.E. Sannin Nage) plus some other less obvious ones.

As to their real life effectiveness, that may come into debate as the attacks they are meant for may not be common attacks today.

I mean, how often does 2 people grab your wrists, while someone grabs you from behind, etc. etc.

[giles]

I've noticed in Hakkoryu and Daitoryu there are specific kata for dealing with multiple attackers, for e.g. in Hakkoryu there is a kata whick starts with tori being seized by four people simultainiously.

Mostly demo fodder in my opinion, but there's some fun stuff in there. When you break the Hakkoryu yonindori (four person attack) down, there's a couple of techniques from the shodangi in there, just much harder to do. So as others have said: a combination of showy stuff for demos and teaching aid for isolating bits of technique.

[fifthchamber]

We have a few two person situations in training, but the scenarios are fairly specific for them, and involve you being taken hold of in advance of an arrest, or being restrained for interrogation of some kind, as well as being attacked while performing reiho to a lord...

While the situations aren't likely to occur in modern times at least, they provide a good way to train the mind to deal with attacks and locks from more than one location, and that's just as viable today as it was in 1532...

We also have methods used for defense of ones senior against an assassination attempt at close range, and methods for doing the assassination itself and the same applies..The principles are solid and should be covered, if not expected daily..

I reckon..

Regards

[johan smits]

I think Asayama Ichiden Ryu also has techniques against multiple attackers.
But as it has been said in this thread and ( quite some time ago) in others it is mostly for demonstrations at least with the more modern styles.

I think kata against multiple attackers teach principles - how to react when dealing with more than one atacker.
Honestly when dealing with multiple attackers you are likely to get run over by five of them, their combined mass smashing you into the ground pinning you and then ah well, Nirwana, Walhalla or the hospital.
It is not very likely the attackers will attack one by one, unless they have swords or likewise weapons which would be dangerous to use for themselves in a melee situation.

Multiple attackers? --> shoot them from a distance.

Happy landings,

Johan Smits

[Jitsumania]

I think kata against multiple attackers teach principles - how to react when dealing with more than one atacker.
Honestly when dealing with multiple attackers you are likely to get run over by five of them, their combined mass smashing you into the ground pinning you and then ah well, Nirwana, Walhalla or the hospital.
It is not very likely the attackers will attack one by one, unless they have swords or likewise weapons which would be dangerous to use for themselves in a melee situation.

Multiple attackers? --> shoot them from a distance.

Happy landings,

Johan Smits

I tend to aggree on some points with Mr. Smits. Understanding principle can be a valuable tool against multiple attackers. If you spend too much time attempting to apply "technique" to any one attacker it leaves you open for the others to crush you. I have adopted the concept of Jiyu waza training from Aikido for my Jujitsu students as well, as it helps them to understand positional relationship, distance, movement (continual, never ever stop moving), Atemi in movement, etc.. Great training tool for multiple attackers. OR you could just carry a Glock, works for me .

[john_lord_b3]

I've noticed in Hakkoryu and Daitoryu there are specific kata for dealing with multiple attackers, for e.g. in Hakkoryu there is a kata whick starts with tori being seized by four people simultainiously.

Do these very specific types of kata occur in other jujutsu ryu? Is there really much value to these as they are so artificial as to appear theatrical.

Hello, I practice an offshot of Hakko-ryu too

Since we are talking about multiple attackers, I have a story to share and advice to ask..

Just a couple of months ago, my friends and I did a Jujutsu demo, and somehow (the devil made me do it!) we decided to do unrehearsed, unplanned multiple-attacker demo, after we do the usual standard routine. Unplanned means that my Uke's did the attack any way they please, and I have to move by instincts, not by Kata.

Here is the video clip

http://www.geocities.com/gbi_dki/2_man_defense.zip

(Right Click and SAVE TARGET AS. Caution: large file, 900k)

As you can see, our movement was very sloppy and very amateur-ish! Thanks God nobody got hurt!

Budo friends, please advise on how to improve our demo performance.

Also, do you guys practice these kind of free-randori in your Jujutsu Dojo? Any scary stories (such as someone forgot to avoid a strike and get struck for real..??)??

Thanks!

[yoj]

It looks a bit like ninindori stuff that wasnt well rehearsed to be honest, still a nice execution though I have to say, given it wasnt planned.

If you are looking at multiple attacker self defense stuff, i'd try more street attack style stuff, rehearse it, but not to kata standard, leave it rough around the edges, forceful, and effective, it's in the henka. Deal with each attacker like it mattered, uke will have to act a bit, but its useful to play with modern real attacks, and see whats in the art to shut them down. The double rear wrist grab just isnt going to happen, but a rear bear hug or front strangle with a front aggressor is a distinct possibility, actually scratch that, it's happened to me, so its entirely valid.

You can look up the habitual methods of street attack easily.

[john_lord_b3]

It looks a bit like ninindori stuff that wasnt well rehearsed to be honest, still a nice execution though I have to say, given it wasnt planned.

If you are looking at multiple attacker self defense stuff, i'd try more street attack style stuff, rehearse it, but not to kata standard, leave it rough around the edges, forceful, and effective, it's in the henka.

Thank you very much for the useful suggestions. Any more advice for rehearsal? Since we are doing traditional martial arts, do you think the demo should looks like one of those Kondo sensei demos (very traditional indeed, no flashy stuff etc), or maybe we can show something like those Sport Jujutsu JJIF stuff (some flashy moves, quick techniques, etc) for the sake of entertainment?

[Chris McLean]

This guys put together some great stuff on the topic I ran accross him visting my sensei in Tampa Florida about 6 years ago. I visited his dojo while I was there, he is one of the good guys.

These are not kata but they are the best techniques I have ever found on the topic of multiple opponents. I share it with anyone who is interested it’s practical and doesn't take being a world class athlete or decades of sensitivity and timing. I practice this stuff to keep it sharp and I introduce it to anyone training with me.
http://www.dirtyfighting.com/

[Orpheus]

Hi Chris,

I ran into their ads some time ago, but without any clips was unwilling to put any money down. Can you tell us anything about the approach to groundfighting?

Thanks,

Steve Baroody

[Chris McLean]

Well as always trying to put into words what we do leaves huge blanks but I will give you an over view. Most of it I would say you can find in traditional BJJ. The postures positions and ideas are based on that and wrestling movements that a ground guy would probably drill in class already. I think some of it could be found in Russian Systema. But the packaging of it is uniquely suited for multiple opponents on the ground. He is an attorney by trade and I know he trained in Aikido for more than a decade before becoming a BJJ student so he is a sharp guy.